A gap in the market

[00:00:00] Mark: Greetings from the no, no, no. It's bad. Start that stuff. Don't like it.

[00:00:07] Brendan: Mathew, welcome to our introduction section. Welcome to the stumble over ourselves. About 15 times.

[00:00:15] Mark: Well, that's out. That's that sorted?

[00:00:21] Mathew: Bruno, how to find your niche, your knees, or your knee say no one says,

[00:00:27] Mark: and he say, ah, Brendan Hutchins. Um, it feels like it's been a week since I've seen you. Hello?

[00:00:32] Brendan: Yeah. And I don't think we're even seeing each other. Hey, Mark Steadman.

[00:00:35] Mark: Ah, it's Podiant, not pedant.

[00:00:37] Brendan: Ma. Welcome Mathew Passy. Hello, gentlemen.

[00:00:40] And, and now, now the, uh, the podcast name is cause casts cause pods cause ponds. I already, I haven't had the wrong one in my head to update it. Well, we're, we're delighted to have you on the show today, uh, to talk about, uh, this is the second part in our burnout series, and we're going to talk about like gaps in the market and finding your niche and.

[00:01:02] Uh, how to, how to find where to be in the podcast sphere. Now that things are really taken off and everybody wants a podcast just like, you know, 10 years ago, everybody played guitar. I played guitar. Now. Now it's the cool thing to do.

[00:01:17] Mark: I mean, I never had the patience to learn.

[00:01:19] Mathew: I could play the opening riff of wish you were here. That's about it.

[00:01:21] Brendan: Boom. When you're, when, when you want to create a podcast, Do you do it for the sole purpose of filling a void that is in the market, or you trying to, um, make a podcast for yourself? Or do you try to kind of bridge the gap between those two? Do you, do you think like, oh, there is this thing that I really want, that I don't see anywhere.

[00:01:46] And. Then hence try and fill that market.

[00:01:50] Mathew: I'm I'm, I'm always driven crazy by the people who say, I really want to start a podcast, but I don't know what to do it on. I know I, I don't want those people podcasting what I'd rather see somebody say,

[00:02:02] Brendan: bye

[00:02:03] Mathew: bye everybody. Like I have a unique set of skills. I've unique information.

[00:02:08] I've unique experience. And I want to share that what's the best way to do that. And then maybe it's a podcast. So. I I'm, you know, then I think you start to ask the question, is there a void? Like, is this being done? If not, how do I do it differently? Or, you know, maybe as professional podcasters, maybe you say to yourself, like, I'll be honest when caught with cause pods, that was more of a, I was thinking about a way to do something altruistic and all of a sudden was like, oh, I don't think anybody's talking about.

[00:02:43] I'll go ahead and do that. But I mean, yeah, it's, it's my job to help people make podcasts. So yeah, I have to think to myself like, oh, what kind of podcasts could I be making this one just sorta came to mind. But for the most part, I hate when I hate, like, if somebody calls me up as a client and says, I wanna start a podcast, I just don't know what it's about.

[00:03:00] I immediately say, cool. ER, well lose. My number is typically what

[00:03:05] Brendan: I might say to them. I fear that I might fall into that realm of, of, uh, wanting to create a podcast for the podcast. So many times

[00:03:14] Mark: that was my, that was my first podcast are genuine now. And I think it comes to us all

[00:03:18] Mathew: well. And how many of those podcasts succeed

[00:03:20] Mark: is the question?

[00:03:21] Oh God, no, no debts. Not, let's not play that game.

[00:03:27] Mathew: And that's the point, like if you're doing, if you're, if your mission is I want a podcast, I don't know what it's about. Chances of success are terrible, whereas Fisher's super passionate and knowledgeable about something. And then podcasts. That makes sense.

[00:03:39] You're probably going to succeed because you've

[00:03:41] Mark: got something to say. Yes, absolutely. I would also add to that. I think if you're listening to a podcast and you're thinking I could do that, I've got two friends. And we can talk. Yeah. Yeah. Then, then also I think, I think the same applies, I think, unless you've got two friends and you're talking about a very specific thing, um, then, uh, yeah, I think, yeah.

[00:04:03] And I, again, like I talked, I think last time about, um, a show that I did that I wasn't super sure about at the time. And then it ended up not being like, I don't look back on it as being, as being something that I'm proud of. I did it every Sunday night. Um, caught, uh, I don't know, 18 months and it wasn't very good.

[00:04:23] And it's because it was essentially a, me too, not a hashtag meter. It was a, it was a me also, it was, you know, it was

[00:04:34] Mathew: hashtag also podcast, hashtag

[00:04:36] Brendan: hashtag

[00:04:36] Mark: also part. Um, it was, it was an also. Uh, like it, you know, it really was, it was a response to, oh, there are those two funny guys. I am probably funny, funny in, I mean, I can not, not necessarily funny, but I'm at least engaging and interesting.

[00:04:52] Not interesting, but I want an audience and those basically.

[00:04:58] Brendan: Yeah, definitely. One thing that I've always tried to focus on it. I might not have the most original idea or aspirations, but I want to make it at least different than anything else I've heard on the markets. Like. They have some sort of thing that makes it unique and special for some reason.

[00:05:17] And then, and then fill a void with that.

[00:05:19] Mathew: Well, but you qualify that by saying anything I've heard. That's true. There's the 600,000 podcasts. Yes. I mean, have you heard all of them?

[00:05:27] Brendan: No, I'm, I'm trying to

[00:05:28] Mathew: get there. I'm not, and that's. People aren't constantly creating new and unique stuff, but, you know, yeah.

[00:05:35] If you're, if you have blinders on and tunnel vision and you know, you only have a select, you know, sample of what you listened to, there's a good chance somebody else is doing it, but right. There's still a chance you could do it. Oh, God, there's a lot of people who could do it better than what's out there.

[00:05:51] And a lot of respects, a lot of there could be a lot of betters. I have a lot of clients where like, yeah, so-and-so does this. It's not very good. I can do it better. I'm like, all right, let's do this. Let's take them.

[00:06:04] Mark: Yeah. I mean, there are more than one. There's more than one band in each genre of music.

[00:06:09] What's I know. Whoa. It's not just fish.

[00:06:13] Mathew: There's also, I've got to go. I've got it. I've got to go explore this. I don't understand where this is also

[00:06:17] Mark: Dave Mathews band. Um, I dunno why I picked those examples. Um, but yeah, like listening to too much ATP, I think that's probably what it is. I tried listening to fish anyway, all of that to say, like, I think if you've got your, your take on something, I think there's.

[00:06:33] There's a degree to which you, you, you are going to end up vanity casting, but I think if you, there is a line there that you can stare to say, yeah, okay. This kind of subject matter has been covered, but not necessarily with this particular voice. Um, and that might be, you know, someone with my background covering this particular topic.

[00:06:50] I mean, one of the examples from last year's, uh, Gimlet competition, which I actually thought would win. Was the, um, show about, uh, about black people and money. And there's been shows about money before, but they usually buy white dudes. And so you're taking the effectively the same thing, but a very, very different topic and very different attitudes to money and, and potentially anyway, just judging on that first episode,

[00:07:18] Mathew: but I know a guy who does a show about black people and money.

[00:07:20] Ah,

[00:07:20] Mark: well, there you go. Um, but yeah, so. Just taking that you can absolutely take us a subject matter. That's that's been already done and, and, and bring a new, uh, bringing a new spin on it. So we're talking about filling a gap and. At the risk of sounding like this is a dumb question in just in the way I'm going to phrase it.

[00:07:43] But what does that mean? Because I'll be talking about filling a specific commercial market. Are we just talking about a topic that hasn't been covered? What does Mathew Passy think? Uh, a gap is, and, and yeah,

[00:07:58] Mathew: I think the gap is. It comes from not the producer side, but from the consumer side, like what you're really feeling is a set of needs that consumers aren't being that are not being fulfilled for the consumer by the listener.

[00:08:16] So, right. There's a show about, you know, black people and money, but you know, maybe that's a show that is too, um, Too formal, you know, maybe it's from someone who is super professional, you know, $20 million under management, you know, talks to high income earners, but that doesn't necessarily appeal to every black person who, you know, maybe doesn't make over a hundred thousand dollars a year in salary.

[00:08:44] So the question isn't necessarily, you know what content doesn't exist, but whose needs aren't being. Taking care of, I think that's the better way to approach whether or not gaps are being filled. So right. Is there a podcast for middle income, black families in America? I'm sure there's a few, but like that, like maybe that's the gap that hasn't been filled.

[00:09:09] So I would think about it less about what do you want to produce some more about whose needs aren't being met by podcast

[00:09:14] Mark: and should those needs, um, I mean, it, it may depend on how your. Intending to make the show, but you know, I think a lot of the time on bit rate we are talking to when thinking about sort of mainly grassroots people, the people that are, are going to start without advertising and trying to work their way up.

[00:09:34] Um, do you think then that we should, as small grassroots producers. Or content makers be making podcasts that fit our gaps, the gaps that we see that we feel, or is there an argument that we should actually go out and fill effectively, fill someone else's gap. If you know what I mean, sort of see that gap in the market.

[00:09:57] Think it doesn't address my need, but I can see that it addresses a market need. Is that. It cannot be done in canopy done authentically. And does that

[00:10:06] Mathew: matter? I think, well, yeah. I mean, can it be done? Sure. Could it be done authentically? Probably not. Um, and I think to your point, I think the independent grassroots podcaster has to be the one to fill those smaller, tighter niches that are open in the market because the larger players, like a Gimlet media is not going to make a podcast that is appropriate for a thousand people because they're still a money-making operation.

[00:10:35] Like they still have to find mass audiences for them to be successful. Whereas. You could be successful again, let's go back to the, uh, middle-income black family money podcast. And not to say that this population is small, but that podcasts there could be successful with a thousand listeners. If you know, a hundred of those people then call this guy up and say, Hey, I want you to be my financial planner or my financial advisor, or, you know, I want to buy your book or something like that.

[00:11:00] So I think, yeah, it's, it is become an on the grassroots podcast. To be the first to fill those gaps, fill those niches, um, and then grow from there and then maybe see their niches expand, see their potential audience grow. You know, there's the guy in the states, Glenn, the geek who was the horse radio network, who, you know, started with a small idea.

[00:11:20] I'm going to talk to other people who have horses. And now he has a network of 15 shows or something like that. And millions and millions of downloads. And. Probably I think millions of dollars in revenue, I could be exaggerating a little bit, if not, let's, let's give him the credit and say he has a million in revenue, but like he started with a small niche and built out from there and he's super successful doing that.

[00:11:41] So yeah, I think you absolutely have to be that way as the grassroots one.

[00:11:45] Brendan: So how does one plan to fill a gap? How do you, how do you prepare to, like, how do you, do you research? What had, what areas are not being filled and. Uh, and if so, how does one do that? No,

[00:12:00] Mathew: I mean, again, I think that's coming. That's the approach coming from the, I want a podcast.

[00:12:05] I don't know what to do it on the Astro. I think it, it, it's more, it's going to be more successful, more authentic. If there's a person who. Recognizes that they serve a community. And like, I, you know, right. One example, one of my clients came to me was like, you know, Hey, I, um, I teach chess and there's a few chess podcasts out there, but you know, they really, they talk to this group and they talked to this group.

[00:12:31] No, one's really talking to this specific audience of chess folks. And, um, I want to fill that need. And so he went ahead. And he's been massively successful doing so, um, you know, he doesn't get a hundred thousand downloads per episode, but he got way more than both of us anticipated him. Getting his product is in high demand and publishers and other folks in the space have given him lots of accolades for tackling a, a gap, filling a void that wasn't there.

[00:13:00] And it's all because. He was uniquely positioned and happened to be a podcast consumer and thought, why isn't anybody doing this? Why don't I do it. And so that's what he did.

[00:13:17] Brendan: you were talking about casting call from Gimlet and I'm the one that actually did when was, was the podcast about multilevel marketing. Yeah. And I was wondering if either of you had listened to the dream podcast? Nope. Yeah, no, it's a, yeah, it's a different podcast about monthly level marketing, one.

[00:13:35] Producers of the show goes into an MLM, uh, signs up for it, you know, goes to a seminar about it and, and, uh, like reports from the inside out. Um, and then they also do a bunch of other investigative journalism into, uh, MLM has ties to, uh, the U S government. And it. A wild ride. It is, uh, it's. It goes over over decades and multiple administrations and the conspiracy is deep in this one and it is so good.

[00:14:08] It is worth the time.

[00:14:10] Mathew: Is the MLM Scientology.

[00:14:13] Mark: Yes. Yes, it is very much. And I'm not I'm masquerading as a

[00:14:16] Brendan: religion. It is just like, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of actually comparisons between, uh, different churches and, um, the different companies that they can. For sure. So there's my, there's my, uh, a suggestion from our favorite

[00:14:30] podcast.

[00:14:31] Mark: Ah, there you go. Lovely. Um, one of the reasons that I've, uh, certainly pod faded before is because I know that the show isn't getting the traction that I wanted it to, and that's almost always because it hasn't been, it hasn't appealed to a specific niche. Uh, an old, a friend of mine who's been in radio for a long time, um, called it.

[00:14:55] So what factor it's like, yeah. You've you you're talking about this. So what also, no one wants to, um, comedy bang, bang, branded itself, jokingly for awhile. The show where we talk to interesting people, because that's a terrible tagline. So when we talk about, um, but. In terms of having difficulty finding that niche or sticking with that niche or talking to that niche.

[00:15:24] Um, can you, uh, Mathew, like, are there any specific things that you've dealt with, um, with either starting a smaller podcast or, uh, a very niche podcast? What have been the challenges that have made you sort of think, you know what I'm close to throwing in the towel on

[00:15:42] Mathew: this one? Well, I mean, I've, I've thrown in the towel on a few podcasts.

[00:15:47] And like I said, most of it comes from the fact that they're just not going anywhere.

[00:15:51] Mark: So what's your, what's your definition of going

[00:15:53] Mathew: anywhere? You know, so many podcasts that I've launched both for myself and for others. Like they kind of get the, like obligatory 80 to a hundred downloads per episode. And to me that says, That so many of them get that kind of number that says that like it's mostly bots and BS and you know, oh, mom's subscribed, but she doesn't actually listen.

[00:16:15] Like, and it would auto downloads for a few weeks, but, but that's all it does. Um, there's no engagement, you know, you ask people to email tweet, you follow whatever. Nothing happens. You post, you know, relentlessly on social media and ask people to download and you get, you know, maybe you get more likes and follows and hearts and retweets, but you don't see any engagement in the podcast.

[00:16:36] So it's just, it's just clear that you're not making an impact in anybody's life. Um, and so, you know, I had, I did a show with a buddy of mine before I was doing. Uh, on my own professionally and we were doing it mostly for ourselves. Like he wound up moving across the country, so like, oh, we'll do a podcast and that'll be a great way to stay in touch.

[00:16:58] And then life got in the way. And so we dropped it and we're like, okay, whatever, no biggie, we don't care. Um, and then I did one when I first started my business called pot up, and that was again, just. Going anywhere. Um, wasn't getting any traction, certainly wasn't helping with my business. So I didn't put the time or effort into it because I, I had business to work on.

[00:17:19] And then the, the one that I, that I probably was getting the most traction on, um, was the pod to pod podcast. Did I have, in fact, I think mark, that's how we met in the first place was we featured podium on there. Um, and that one was actually doing pretty well. I mean, for the industry that we talked to for the, the potential audience that's out there, like the numbers were pretty good actually.

[00:17:42] Um, but then my kids were born and I said to her, I was like, look, I'm going to take the summer off because you know, I've got twins now and. Uh, I've got to keep, you know, I've got to earn more money because these two want to eat a lot and they're going to poop a lot. So sorry. And then truthfully, like after the summer, I just, I, I didn't, I didn't feel it.

[00:18:02] Like, I didn't have the passion for it anymore. It wasn't that important to me because to your point, I was like, so what. Um, and I thought that others were coming into the space and doing a better job of reporting on the podcasting industry, talking to the podcasting industry. And truly I was selfish in my desire to do the podcast anyway.

[00:18:23] Um, it was pretty much like I just wanted my own vehicle. Uh, talking to people and getting access to folks like it was great. Like, oh, cool guy who owns a podcasting hosting company is going to talk to me because I have a podcast. Sweet. You know, the guys who created the mixed pre six are willing to do a podcast with me because I podcast like awesome.

[00:18:41] I didn't care who listened. I just had an excuse to talk to really cool people. So, um, that really led to the burnout, uh, for me in a lot of cases. And I think, I think that. The, you know, that's the reason why a lot of people fade is because they lose the passion for it. They are not seeing the results, whether that's, you know, purely download driven, or if there are other places that they're looking for a return on investment, whether it's new business, new listeners, uh, new followers, I should say a new email subscribers, whatever that might be.

[00:19:13] Um, or they're just not seeing any engagement. And so. Yeah, it, yeah. Or somebody else is coming along and doing a better like, eh, like I I'm, this is just not worth my energy anymore.

[00:19:24] Brendan: Yeah. That's a really great way to articulate, uh, at least how I felt like for me, the download numbers have never really like, they they've been a nice treat.

[00:19:33] Like it's a little bit of icing on the cake. For the, to me, the fun part is making the podcast, having the download numbers go up every, you know, episode is, is, is fun, you know, as an extra little bonus, but I think you're right. Like the engagement is really the part where it makes or breaks how long you can really do something.

[00:19:52] If you're keep putting that out there. And it's you just don't, you don't seem to be making an impact, like you said. Um, That can definitely just like, what am I doing this war?

[00:20:02] Mathew: Yeah. And, and it's, it's okay. I mean, yeah, there's the, one of the greatest things about podcasting is that it is such a low barrier to entry.

[00:20:12] Anybody can do it. And of course that barrier to entry has gotten even lower with the introduction of things like anchor. Yeah. The problem with podcasting is anybody can dammit because the barrier to entry is so low. And so it's so easy for people to just throw something out there and see. For fun for get for a laugh for goofs, because, you know, as I said at the beginning, oh, I want to start a podcast.

[00:20:34] I don't know why, but I want to start one, you know, because people are convinced that podcasting is some, get automatic, get rich, quick scheme that, you know, it will. Automatically leads to fame and fortune because it's led to fame and fortune for a select few of people. It's, it's not, it's work, it's work like anything else.

[00:20:51] And so if you're not going to dedicate real man hours to it, or woman hours, person hours, um, if you're not going to dedicate resources to it, if you're not passionate about it, um, if at the end of the day, You just, you're going through the motions then. Yeah. It's probably time to step away and that's okay.

[00:21:11] Brendan: Yep. That

[00:21:12] Mark: makes sense. Oh yeah. I feel like I'm in a therapy session.

[00:21:14] Mathew: This is well, and that's the last episode a bit, right? Everyone. Thanks for joining us.

[00:21:20] Mark: Well, I don't know. Um, these are genuinely issues that. Dealt with, um, and Sam. Yeah. Um, but I think having someone articulate, maybe you're just going through the motions and it's okay to stop.

[00:21:38] And more importantly, you don't have to move to the next one. Yeah. I mean really great

[00:21:44] Mathew: advice. Yeah. You don't have to have a podcast. You're not entitled to one either. No.

[00:21:48] Mark: Oh no. Yeah. It's it's it's okay. That, that people don't hear your voice. Um, all of the time, one of the, like, it's interesting though.

[00:21:58] Hearing you talk about one of the great of selfish reasons to have a podcast is you get to talk to interesting people. Oh, hell yeah. I I'm, I'm doing a private, uh, project at the moment and it just occurred to me that God, you know what, I actually could do a podcast where I talk to people who were doing the same thing, but who were doing it professionally or doing it better than me and would probably talk to me because people who do things, let's talk about things and that could be.

[00:22:27] Great way of me just cribbing off them and just like learning that tips and tricks, which is actually how a lot of good podcasts genuinely starts. I think, um, there's, there's one which is finally finding, uh, some, some footing in terms of ad revenue is a show called the comedian's comedian. And that was basically a.

[00:22:48] This will sound unkind. I don't mean it to, but a middling successful comic, um, sort of like a very good comic, but like not a household name by any stretch. Um, but he would just go and interview comics and he, he, you know, he's interviewed one of my favorites. Brian Regan introduced him to a UK audience who like no one knows.

[00:23:09] Um, you know, even my friends who were interested in standup, like didn't know who Brian Regan was, but you know, he would go interview big, big names. And he's, his career has gone from strength to strength and he's learned these different things and he's learned different techniques. And I find that a really interesting way.

[00:23:27] There's a, there's a purity in that sense to actually doing it for a particular reason. That is not about trying to get the download numbers because actually in a way the podcast is actually just a foil. It's sort of just the mechanism by which you selfishly get you. Betters, if you like to come and tell you how to do things

[00:23:47] Mathew: well, I mean, there's, there's a lot of comedians who, most comedians who have a podcast are ma you know, w Medilink like, they're not famous comedians.

[00:23:55] Like the top comedians don't need a podcast. Right. It's very true. But the smaller folks, you know, mark Marin was a somewhat, no name comedian until he became one of the most popular podcasts in the world. Joe Rogan was a TV show. C level actor. Yeah. TV personality, who, you know, now has become one of the most important voices of, uh, you know, of this generation because of his podcast.

[00:24:19] So it's, it's very common that. Mid to lower level status talent in any field uses a podcast to elevate themselves. And to your other point about using the podcast as a sort of networking too. I mean, one of my most successful clients, he started by saying, he's like, look, I don't really even care if I grow my Twitter followers.

[00:24:39] I don't care if I bring in new business. There are these people in my industry who I want to talk to. And if I call him up and say, Hey, can I talk to you for an hour? They're going to go, who the hell are you and why am I going to spend an hour on the phone with, you know, get bent? Right. But if I approach these people and I say, I like to have you on my podcast.

[00:24:56] They'll go. Ooh. And he turned, you know, what was going to be like, Like a three to eight episode test into 116 episodes and over 5 million downloads easily because he had a genuine passion and curiosity and he just rolled with

[00:25:13] Mark: it. I'm in absolutely two minds at the moment. Cause you know, I've already promised myself, I'm not going to start a new show.

[00:25:20] Uh, and I'm not seriously thinking about starting a new show. Certainly

[00:25:24] Mathew: not now. Um, it's like, it's like budget deficit. Like you can't start a new show until you lose, you know, genuinely the ledger has to be

[00:25:33] Mark: like, Brendan. It comes to us all, mate. I'm finally, I'm finally at that point, uh, it's just that I know that Barrera, the leopard, you know, it will end this year.

[00:25:41] And so genuinely that, like on one hand, I'm thinking actually this could be really good. I could speak to people who were doing this. I mean, I don't have to keep a hobby, a secret I'm writing a children's book. And so I could speak to other children's authors and, uh, you know, and actually start getting some, some, you know, ideas and finding out what they did, blah, blah.

[00:25:59] That'd be lovely. But then the. A bit of my brain that knows what burnout feels like. And I wonder if either of you can speak to this, um, is it's a treadmill, uh, finding guests every week. Um, and you know, maybe there's a technique for pre-loading and starting way in advance. You've got plenty of buffer time.

[00:26:22] I don't know, but that's the thing that fills me with the fear. So.

[00:26:26] Mathew: One. Yes, commonly the success of podcasts are consistently. And if you want to be consistent, weekly is the best frequency to go. But why do you have to do it every week? If you're doing it for yourself? Like for example, I ideally I wanted cause spots to be a weekly thing I really did.

[00:26:43] And I tried, I worked hard to get a large stock of people worked up in advance and planned ahead and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There just aren't that many people that I could talk to for this pod. Okay. And so I got to one, I got to a spot where one, I had to change the name and that led to a big delay to the holidays came around.

[00:27:00] That led to a delay, three of the people who I wanted to talk to were like, yeah, I'd love to do that, but I can't do it for blah, blah, blah. Like we just couldn't connect for months. So you know what I did, I didn't publish an episode that week. It's okay. Like I'm not looking again. I'm not looking for this podcast to necessarily become a million download podcasts and put my name on the, on the, you know, on the globe through it.

[00:27:25] I'm doing it because it's an interesting topic to me. I'm learning about the space. I think in doing this, I've been able to network with a few people who I haven't been able to network with before. Um, and hopefully I can use it to, you know, do a little bit of good in the world, but if it doesn't come at it, So, you know, now, now again, if a client comes to me and says, I want to get to $20,000 a week, I'm going to turn up and say, well, you've got to put one on every week.

[00:27:52] Like if your goal, if your goal is growth and yet this is what you have to do to grow. If your goal is you need to learn, you need to network like this is your personal journey and you just happen to want to share with people. Don't kill yourself.

[00:28:05] Brendan: Yeah, it was a really good points, uh, via for me, like the pressure of sticking to that.

[00:28:11] Like I have too many other things to be able to make sure that I hit that weekly new episode. Um, although I, I definitely do appreciate the podcasts that do stick to the weekly episode. I also appreciate the podcasts that only put out an episode when. They're ready and not just make an episode for

[00:28:32] Mathew: episode sake.

[00:28:33] Here's an episode to tell you that we don't have an episode this week. Oh my

[00:28:35] Brendan: gosh. I really don't like those. You get your hopes up that this is going to be a new episode and it's like, oh, I'm just letting you know that I can't make it this week.

[00:28:44] Mark: I don't mind those as much as, as the ones that say we haven't got an episode this week.

[00:28:48] So here's one from last year that you've already heard or a one that is a unique frustration for my, my friend, John, when he goes running is, um, we haven't got a podcast this week, but here's a completely unrelated show that you didn't subscribe to.

[00:29:01] Mathew: Oh, let me tell you about that. That the daily did that once the New York times one.

[00:29:06] I, I don't mind when people throw other podcasts in their feet as a promotional tool, like, Hey, the good folks at the daily, we're producing a new podcast. We're going to send a sample in here. Yeah. Cool. This is your feed. You do what you want with it, but they substituted an episode that day. And I was like, no, no, I still want my news MFS don't you dare drop this garbage on me.

[00:29:29] Like this is a tough one. Like I was so upset that I never gave that show a shot. I don't even know if that show exists.

[00:29:37] Brendan: When, when that does it really well is a 99% invisible. They drop. Every, you know, probably once a month, they'll drop somebody else's podcast right. In the feed, but they'll do it with an interview surrounding it.

[00:29:49] So it's not just the episode. They'll add more content to it, which I always like. And if you're, and if a podcast is going to drop an old episode in like sometimes reply all, does this they'll tack on an agenda at the end, giving you an update on what's new or different. Um, I think, uh, like planet money does that sometimes where they update, like things have happened since we reported this or whatever, and that's always nice.

[00:30:13] Um, and it's also especially nice when they give you the time code of where you can skip to. So you don't have to listen to the episode again or

[00:30:19] Mathew: skip around while reply, all report. Bums me out because that's a professional organization. They can't put out an episode every week. Come on, come on, man. How

[00:30:28] Brendan: many people work there?

[00:30:30] Yeah,

[00:30:30] Mathew: I know it's so, and I enjoy your yes. Yes no's but like, that should be a bonus that shouldn't be in lieu of a real episode

[00:30:36] Mark: when they're on their game, they are incredible, but they are, they have not been on that game for like a year. I mean, they did that. They did that Superbowl thing in India, uh, which was wonderful.

[00:30:47] Uh, and that was,

[00:30:49] Mathew: yeah, that was. Well, and I thought the one about the police computer in New York was also fascinating.

[00:30:55] Brendan: A lot of really great reporting

[00:30:56] Mark: for sure. Yes. Uh, yeah. And, and it w when, when they're on it, but yeah, they have become a bit of, a bit of a joke in, in the sense that there are so many people and they do seem to find it very hard to make a podcast now bless them.

[00:31:11] Um, whether it's just because. The, you know, the, the, the condescending part of me wants to say, well, that's just because they're too busy, focusing on making shows with movie stars and not actually doing what they were originally intended for, but they're also a company. They

[00:31:26] Mathew: get to do what they want. So I mean, the topics they tagged him, it's, it's a good report.

[00:31:30] I'm like, that's not easy. It was like the

[00:31:32] Brendan: perfect environment where I can rant about another thing about reply, all. Okay. So back in the date, when they first start. When he first came to Gimlet, there was an episode, I think it was over a pile. It might've been a start-up where they talked about making sure that they were comfortable with the ads that were on.

[00:31:48] They didn't want to do like these host read ads that they were uncomfortable with and they wouldn't share like about all the different

[00:31:55] Mark: aspects of this and that it was the lands on reply. All talking on start-up. Yes. Yeah. Uh,

[00:32:02] Brendan: the, at least the last episode, if not the last two episodes have had ads for Facebook.

[00:32:07] Mathew: Well Facebook or the Facebook show.

[00:32:09] Brendan: I don't remember it, but so, I mean the Facebook, the new Facebook podcasts. Yeah. It's still a

[00:32:13] Mathew: part of Facebook. Well, but I mean like, are the hosts reading it or is it one of their producers

[00:32:18] Brendan: reading it, it was read by, it was read by one of the producers. It wasn't the host.

[00:32:22] Mathew: I mean, at the same time, like they've got to make money. Like your, your moral grounds are fantastic, but we know you still have to make money. You have investors, like we're not.

[00:32:31] Brendan: Yeah, that's true. I wanted to answer your question, mark and it's it's good. Oh, uh, guests, uh, being burnt out from, oh yeah. Uh, scheduling guests and stuff.

[00:32:40] I, uh, I was actually just thinking this when, um, cause with you Mathew, we were having a little. Trouble getting ahold of you and they didn't

[00:32:48] Mark: really want me, we just didn't try hard enough. That's all.

[00:32:51] Brendan: It was no, it was like us. Um, and so yeah, mark had sent me that he, he, he couldn't get ahold of you. And so I messaged you on, on Twitter, which is now offered, uh, and we were able to go home and I was just thinking.

[00:33:06] You know, sometimes it's this scheduling thing actually comes to me really well. Like I, I booked the next, uh, three guests as well, and, and, um, it's actually kind of fun and rewarding. And, and then I, I struggled with, as you can probably tell the actual interview part, the actual talking, asking questions and being able to do.

[00:33:24] Articulate, uh, is, is much more difficult for me than actually getting people lined up.

[00:33:29] Mark: You and me, both brother. I sat down with Tom Merritt and basically just went, Bob, look, bro, y'all going to podcast. Um, yeah, so, no, I, I understand, but you like you have, and I want to know what your, what your special sources, because you have always been able to book great guests.

[00:33:45] And I think a lot of that is because you. As someone who has legitimately lived in this space for a long time and carries credence and, um, you have a lot of Goodwill and cache. Um, and so people are happy to talk to you. Um, and I think that is one of the things that speaks to our overall topic. So one of the, um, one of the things that I might write, if I'm, or say it to people out loud is like a good way to promote your podcast is, is using social media and using things like.

[00:34:18] Uh, the subreddits that are related to your topic. But I think to it to a very large degree, if you're already, already a fan of that stuff, you should probably already have been in those forums. Anyway, you shouldn't really be popping in and saying, hello everyone. I have a podcast. I mean, I'm like, I'm not a big forum user.

[00:34:39] I've always, I find people to be a problem. Um, and so I, I haven't necessarily used forums, but like I made a show. That is a thing that I'm a fan of. And so that made it super easy to know. Okay. Well, I, I talked to these people, um, and I go to this specific place and okay. I am popping in for the first time and saying, you know, this is the show.

[00:35:00] This is the thing I love, but I. Already speak the language and I carry a weight, um, because I know the obscure lines and I'm not just going to say, oh, dolphins 42, uh, you know, life, the universe and everything. Like I can, I can quote some obscure stuff. Um, and I think one of the reasons that you can.

[00:35:20] guests well is because you know, the space well, and you know, more importantly, you know, the people in the space well, because you connect and you spend a lot of your time connecting. I think that is a huge factor. Is the amount of time you spend being a person, um, in that space before you spend that time being a podcaster?

[00:35:39] Yeah,

[00:35:39] Brendan: for sure. I was talking with one, uh, I, uh, client, I guess we could say about kind of helping coaching them about where to post their podcasts and where to market and where to engage. And we were talking about Reddit and he had gotten on there. He'd come back to me a couple days later and was like, man, I don't know.

[00:36:02] I can't, I can't post it. Won't always let me do multiple posts and this and that. And I'm like, You gotta, you gotta learn how to use Reddit, I guess first, like we can't just never have gone on there and then start posting. You got to be a member of the community. You can't just, um, bald your way in throw your spam around and expect people to want to just eat it up and engage with it and stuff.

[00:36:26] So, yeah. Yeah. You really have to be a part of the community too. To make that work

[00:36:30] Mark: well. So, um, how did that work with, with corresponds then? Um, is that because you already knew, uh, you know, cause obviously Mathew, you talked about, there are only sort of finite people that, that you can speak to, uh, at this, at this moment.

[00:36:47] Um, is that because of the, the breadth of people that you've already spoken to, that, you know, in, in your sort of mental Rolodex as well, these, these people that have worked with all these people that I know. Um, podcast about this particular topic or were you going and finding fresh meat as it were?

[00:37:02] Mathew: Uh, no.

[00:37:02] It had to be freshmen. I didn't know anybody in this space. That's sort of why I was intrigued by it because I don't think we, we talk about it enough and honestly like searching the. Profit non-profit category of iTunes that the, the ranking, there is mostly shows that are old and no longer publishing.

[00:37:21] Like it's a, it's a pretty dead space. So I was, I was kind of hoping that I'd be able to raise some awareness for the space and in focusing on it. But yeah, I don't know anybody who was doing this beforehand. I, you know, I've had to go out there and sort of figure it out on my own. And I take as many suggestions from people as I can.

[00:37:38] And I did a lot of networking and podcast movement this past year to get on a, to get folks for the show. But, um, part of the problem is I can't find them. I don't know them. And a lot of them, even if they have shows, they don't go very well because it's a very difficult space to succeed in. And especially if you're a nonprofit, um, you know, time and resources are valuable to you.

[00:37:59] And if you're doing something that's not. Benefiting the organization that's benefiting your cause. You know, you have to sort of, uh, cut it and move on. So, um, I guess there's a lot of pod faders in, in the cause pod industry, so to speak,

[00:38:14] Brendan: I would love to hear about the, uh, the, the cause of you having to change.

[00:38:19] Podcast name and how that all came about.

[00:38:21] Mathew: Yeah, no. So I mean, I, the reason cause gas even came around one day as I was thinking about it, like, oh, I wonder if I did a podcast about that. Did some research cause cast.org was a URL that was available. So I bought that. I sat on it for months, months, maybe even a year.

[00:38:38] Finally, one day I decided I'm going to go ahead and do it. And I started a podcast and there had been a cause cast, but I was like, oh, they're not podcasts. And this shouldn't really be a big deal. Um, but cause casts was available. So I was like, I don't do it one day after maybe 10 episodes came out, I got a very nice letter said, Hey, I love what you're doing.

[00:38:58] Uh, But you're kind of infringing on our trademark that we've had for about 12 years. And honestly, I was like, you know what? I'm not making a cent off. Cause pause. In fact, I'm investing my own money into it because it's kind of like my, what I consider my like non-profit arm of my podcasting business.

[00:39:16] I'm like, you know what, I appreciate your kind words and how gentle you were about this. I'm going to change the name. No problem. Um, so again, I went back and I bought, I actually went to buying four different domains because I wanted to like, get the process moving, but I didn't want to lose any of them.

[00:39:34] So I bought four, um, share the ideas with my wife and we both sort of agree that out of the four, this was the only one that was a suitable. Replacement.

[00:39:50] Mark: Do you want to tell us a bit about, um, uh, Mathew Passy, the podcast consultant?

[00:39:56] Mathew: So yeah, no, uh, we'd love to, so I got laid off from a radio and podcast and job at the end of 2014 and didn't know what the hell I was going to do next. Um, and in the meantime, a few people that I worked with, like, Hey, we want to, you know, we enjoy podcasting with you.

[00:40:11] Can we keep doing that? Yeah, why not? I've got a computer I'll I'll try and do it from home. No problem. Um, so I started to do it. Part-time just as a way to make some money while I was thinking about what my other options were going to be. Um, and fast forward, four years later, and it's turned into a full-time job.

[00:40:31] I, I never realized the, I mean, I knew the podcast, it was growing. I knew that there was some potential here, but I didn't think. Personally, I could build a sustainable business out of it or that even there was enough demand for these kinds of services, but, you know, as we've learned, there's a lot of people with great content, great messaging, great branding, great networking that needs to be done.

[00:40:53] Um, and so basically I've, I've turned the. Experience that I had, and now it's turned into a passion into a full-time job. And so if you're someone who's looking to start a podcast, if you need help with the current product that you're producing. Um, you know, hopefully I can help you with launch production promoting, um, maybe some profiting.

[00:41:16] Uh, the other thing I've been doing lately is folks who have already launched a podcast with that. Didn't have some professional help and they're like, you know, we, we tried to launch a podcast and now we want to take it seriously, but we think we don't know what we're doing. Um, I've done, I do something called audit my podcast.com.

[00:41:30] And I literally take a look at your show and your SEO and your display and your marketing, and be like not bad. Here's everything you're doing wrong, but not bad. Um, and so like I try and help folks who launched a podcast with that help straighten out the ship and get them to a place where they can take it to that next level.

[00:41:48] I

[00:41:48] Mark: would highly recommend that service. Uh, I've I've been lucky enough to, uh, uh, be given some of, um, Mathews J wisdom, very, very generously. Um, and, uh, it, you know, it, it was invaluable for me to, to figure out yep. I'm I sort of knew the stuff that I was doing wrong, but it's been really great to be told it and to be told it sort of bluntly, but not rudely.

[00:42:12] Like, you know, look, this is, this is where you're going wrong. Um, this is what you need to be

[00:42:16] Mathew: doing. And now he's listening to Dave Mathews band, as I suggested exactly.