Branded podcasts and the lost magic of audio

[00:00:00] Mark: So slack is 24 7. Yeah. And we are distributed workers now everywhere in the world. And I've noticed I was, I was slacking you this, uh, this afternoon. And I just like, and I do this all the time and I think you do it as well. I think most people who use slack do this, where you don't greet, we don't greet people.

[00:00:23] No, we just like bam straight into a question. Absolutely. That's the thing. This is what we're going to do.

[00:00:35] Oh,

[00:00:40] I Mark Steadman from Podiant

[00:00:42] Brendan: I'm Brendan Hutchins from podcast advocate network. How is.

[00:00:49] Mark: I'm trying to be formal. I

[00:00:51] Brendan: was actually thinking about this. I have a serious question. Like I am, you know, in the PR I'm sort of in the process of trying to build myself up as somebody who edits podcasts for a living and, and makes podcasts. Professionally. So I'm going to be at my computer, listening and editing on podcasts all the time.

[00:01:08] W when am I going to have time to actually listen to podcasts? Oh, serious worry is probably my, one of my biggest hesitations outside of, you know, not having the client base yet, uh, of, of starting this because right now I have this super luxury. I've been able to listen. The podcast 10 hours a day.

[00:01:28] Mark: Well, I have in my library, I see overcast doesn't give me, uh, an actual number, but I have, you know, a fairly large amount of podcasts.

[00:01:37] It was probably not as many as you, I would imagine, but it's a, I keep scrolling and scrolling and scrolling and then it's just there. Um, and I manage, I mean, I, I. I was at the end of the queue last night, and now they start to back up again. But so like, I, I get through them somehow. And, um, so for me, it's, whenever you have downtime, it really is.

[00:01:58] So it's morning it's, uh, and it might sometimes depend on the way. Uh, that I'm doing, obviously, if you're editing podcasts, you can't listen to another podcast, but there are bits you find time here and there and then cooking and washing up and general human maintenance and domestic work. All of that stuff.

[00:02:17] You know, my Sunday is often spending, you know, 20 minutes dumping, Catlett around. The trays and washing them thoroughly and bleaching them and you know, going, oh God, I should really get new trays. And, uh, and you know, that time is always spent, uh, listening to podcasts. So I think it might just be that you, you shovel things, show

[00:02:39] Brendan: things around about, I, uh, I export the OPL from overcast into an XML file so I can.

[00:02:46] The number of podcasts I have on a regular basis. I just did it after a big purge. I'm trying to, because I often am leftover with a remainder of podcasts. I just never get to. And. Uh, so after the purge, I'm at 148 subscriptions, I'm almost on the, on the Smartspeed counter in a, in settings. I'm almost at a thousand hours.

[00:03:10] I'm at my nine. Wow. 38. I think of what

[00:03:14] Mark: it was yesterday. Oh, that's that's. That is, um, that's a. Yeah. Uh, we should, we should petition anyone listening. Uh, if you can beat Brenden's number. Yes. And, uh, you will win a pen or something. Yeah.

[00:03:29] Brendan: Perfect. Wasn't make a panel just for you. Yep. Congrats. You have more listening and overcast than I do.

[00:03:37] Mark: Wow. I mean, I tell you what I am so far behind. Um, Smartspeed has only saved me a poultry 308 hours. Well,

[00:03:46] Brendan: speaking of podcasts, we're listening to, we just, uh, started listening to a new one. Yeah. And

[00:03:50] Mark: we did, uh, you alerted me to this and it made me very happy instantly because he's one of my favorite people.

[00:03:55] Yeah. Stephen

[00:03:56] Brendan: Fry just started a new podcast

[00:03:58] Mark: leap years or great leap years. Cause I guess they're not the piers. They leap years. They leap leap years. That's years years though. You Blair's. Exactly. Yeah. I just said, I just said deep layers. Um, yeah. It's um, About 10 years ago, Frye used to have a thing called pod grams, which wasn't a door, trouble name for, um, for podcasts.

[00:04:24] Uh, and I thought they were lovely and he had, he would do sort of two styles of show if I remember rightly and, uh, so he would do a thing that he would call bless AEs, which were, I think mostly him reading his. Blog posts. Ah,

[00:04:40] Brendan: yes. Okay. I was wondering whether it be what's coming from, um,

[00:04:43] Mark: and then the other one I think was slightly looser.

[00:04:45] If I remember it. And then a couple years later, he started to show which he then abandoned, which is good to know that even people like Stephen Fry started podcasts and this dumped them called the Donald Donald refuses. Yes, but this is very much in that sort of bless a style where it's just, it's 40 minutes of very dense writing, uh, with some nice music in the background,

[00:05:10] Brendan: way more like an audio book chapter.

[00:05:13] Um, then, then a podcast, which is fine. That's cool. And I, you know, some people distribute their audio books via podcasts, and I think that's awesome. Uh, I. I didn't look too much into it. I just saw Stephen Fry's name on it. And I was like, I'm cool. Let's sign up. But you know, like let's check it out. And I think I listened to the trailer too.

[00:05:37] And I, I th I don't think I was listening too closely. I thought he was going to be doing interviews. Like I thought he was. Going to be talking to the great people of making leaps in years or something. I don't know what I thought,

[00:05:48] Mark: but I think one would assume that. Yeah.

[00:05:50] Brendan: And so when I was just listening to him read for 40 minutes, I was like, okay, my head is spinning.

[00:05:57] Um, yes, I'm glad I'm just installing a floor and not trying to actually do something important. Um, it, it was a good set. I mean, obviously he's a great writer and a great reader. And so it was, it was awesome quality content. Oh, yeah, it was interesting that it felt like he was, you know, it felt like a branded podcast.

[00:06:16] It felt like, um, a, you know, a way to sell. His book is what if I don't even know if he has a book, but it sounds like

[00:06:24] Mark: he's trying to solve now. This might be a function of the way cast works, but did you get the home diet ads at the beginning of the end? I did

[00:06:31] Brendan: not know. Uh, ha

[00:06:33] Mark: now you see, this is where it gets.

[00:06:35] Interesting. Um, I did see that it was an outcast podcast. Yeah. So this is this. Okay. This is very interesting then. So the, the way it works is you have a pre. Uh, which is read by him. Um, and there is no, there's no way cast noise. So, uh, I think, uh, you know, if there is ad injection, well, there must be, if you didn't get there, if you didn't get the ads, but it's not the automated, um, here's some content from someone else.

[00:07:02] So he reads the ad and then he goes into the show and then halfway through. So halfway through the, the thing, uh, he stops for an outbreak. What happened now? I'm

[00:07:11] Brendan: remembering him going into. Um, and I thought those were just like chapter breaks or, or something like that. It wasn't really. Because there was no ad, it didn't, it didn't feel like an outbreak.

[00:07:22] Mark: So we, we were talking away through this and it got us to thinking about patented podcasts weirdly enough. Um, not exactly the, the jury is still out. Um, and you fished out, uh, an article from Pacific content, uh, saying that branded podcasts a

[00:07:39] Brendan: dead. Yeah. And I had just, I had just listened to a Wolf den, uh, episode with the guys from Pacific content where they had.

[00:07:47] Kinda more or less laid out that this was going to happen. Uh, you know, something like, you know, whatever, the more or less just rebranded, what branded podcast as a branding problem for branded podcasts. Um, when, you know, like the, the. The brand part comes first. It's it's too much of a, oh, here. We're trying to sell you first and then, oh yeah.

[00:08:07] We'll make content later. And then their new plan is just to change the name in the article. They talk about how HBO and Netflix and Amazon, and I'll have, I'll have their original. And so they're changing brand co branded podcasts to be original podcasts with brands. Yes.

[00:08:26] Mark: Thank you. Yeah, it is. Um, and I think the justification makes sense and yeah, after having looked at their sites and went through their, um, their show reel, which is very, very well-produced, so it's a, it's a fairly compelling show rail.

[00:08:43] Really surprised at, um, the number shows that I'd heard of that I didn't realize were made by Pacific content. Um, certainly, and I, you know, I knew Veronica Belmont was doing a show with Mozilla and that would obviously be a. Piece of content, but it hadn't occurred to me that that was being made by Pacific content.

[00:09:03] And, um, there was a couple of other ones as well. And so it, it does, it does demonstrate that, um, at least their marketing position is that they make podcasts for listeners. Yes. The post makes a specific mention of it being a light touch from the brands. Um, which I think, you know, is, is absolutely the right way to go.

[00:09:23] I don't know that I listen to any branded podcasts. I think Gimlet media do such an interesting thing of like whenever they advertise a branded show, they really, really want to, uh, stress the difference between a, what we might call a Gimlet original and a Gimlet branded egg. And I've given it creative, um, chair.

[00:09:45] Right. And so, as a result of that, I've never really. Like, oh, I'm going to check that show out because they're almost like, listen, you probably don't want to hear this. It's branded content. It's part of it. You know, we've got the apple music underneath, so yeah, we're going to say it anyway, but, and it, and so I've always been like, okay, well, thanks for letting me know.

[00:10:07] Um, I've actually really enjoyed them. Good. Cause I was going to ask. Yeah. So Brandy chose, you'd listened to,

[00:10:13] Brendan: I've listened to the venture. I've listened to creative conversations. Uh, why we

[00:10:19] Mark: eat what we eat? Have you listened to chompers? I have

[00:10:22] Brendan: not. No.

[00:10:29] Mark: Oh, look at that. It's a, it's a, it's a Jon Hickman. It's a picture invasion from Jon Hickman of threats and be wherever the leopard. Oh, oh, is this the

[00:10:37] Jon: show we're going to show? Oh yeah. So is there going to be like, is this going to be an edited role and it's going to be called thread and then Sally, right.

[00:10:45] There'll be nice. Clear question and answers. And it was exactly right Joe, like about that. There's a, there's a behind the scenes bonus DVD. Yes. Yes. I don't know which one's which so about, about 10 years ago and this, this, this relates to podcasts and Evert comments, actually, Chris did a book called free, which came out 2009.

[00:11:08] And the subtitle of that was the future of a radical price. Now he put out a podcast version of the book and he also put out an audio book version of the. And, uh, at the same time, um, uh, in banks had a novel out called transition and they put out a podcast of the book and an audio book of the book. And what's interesting is that they were both playing with the idea of what is free and how you value your time.

[00:11:36] Right? Banks, his publisher said the abridged version of the book. It's a podcast and it's free, but if you want the full book and you want the full story, you pay for the audio book per hour, the whole fricking book for free and said, oh yeah, but you know, if you're an important dude like me, you haven't got the time to listen to me, tell you my book for nine hours.

[00:11:59] So you pay for the abridged version. I would have assumed

[00:12:01] Brendan: that one of. Uh, podcast versions, we're going to have ads on them. I thought that was what you were going to come

[00:12:07] Jon: out with 2009 was a, was a simpler time in podcasting

[00:12:15] so, um, I was listening to the, the bit right about podcasts and, um, I was, I was quite amazed by how well you behave, Mark Steadman. You normally have much more strident opinions about what a podcast is than what. Suggest that

[00:12:32] Mark: there was a very nice guy Stein then. So he was trying to be problematic. Um, Tina Belcher noise, the

[00:12:39] Jon: third component of

[00:12:40] Mark: the show.

[00:12:42] Yes. This is the bit where John, uh, castigates me. Oh,

[00:12:47] Jon: no, no, no, not cascading you. I was, I was very pleased to hear that this discussion add and, and I was very, very pleased with how, how modern and open it was by I suppose, going as I was listening to it, I was like, oh, I'd like to say this thing now. And, and I thought, well, um, cause I know who mark is.

[00:13:03] I can actually get to say those things. So I'm going to ask, so what I would say first is I'm not kind of saying that anything that anyone said was wrong, but I think I've got a couple of, couple of little points. On some of the things that were said and a couple of different, different ways of thinking about some of the things, which also aren't right.

[00:13:21] Mark: Are you going to, well, actually, no, no, no, no, no,

[00:13:23] Jon: no. So, um, if I am well, actually sort of sound board ready, some of the, some of the framing, and it's really, really hard to have this conversation without doing this, but some of the framing was almost like, well, what can we do to fix this? And it's really, really hard for anyone to fix it because.

[00:13:42] The way that language is messy and the way that culture is messy, but I totally heard your kind of like your, your hope and desire that, that, that you could. Um, and, um, I thought that the thing about the idea that the word podcast might disappear was really, really interesting. And I really liked the idea and I really liked that, that theory, and that is one thing that could have.

[00:14:01] Um, but the other thing that could happen is that it might become just a totally empty signify with nothing connected to what it had before. And then everybody will pile new meanings in on top of that. So since give you an example of this, as much as we might say, as we divorce the big. So the argument was that because the iPod doesn't really exist as an iPad anymore.

[00:14:23] The connection that people have, whether it's right or wrong in terms of the etymology of the word to a podcast. And so there was discussion of, or as the iPod disappears, the word should disappear. Um, that's really interesting and that's really exciting. We do have a model way. It wouldn't disappear, which if you look at the, uh, computers in front of you and you look at the gooeys that you've got, there are so many metaphors in there that don't make any sense.

[00:14:51] at what they are. Yeah. Floppy. Disney's a safe pair of

[00:14:54] Mark: scissors as a, I brought that point up and I'm, I'm not entirely sure whether I put it in the edit or not, but, uh, I did, I did refer to that as the save icon problem

[00:15:04] sort

[00:15:04] Jon: of podcast almost becomes it doesn't really matter. The. It could go though that one way we could go this other way and we don't, we don't know because culture is so messy.

[00:15:12] I think that's kind of what I kept thinking all along the way was, oh yeah, it is. It is very messy. Um, what do you mean video? Wow, that was amazing. I already really enjoyed, I really enjoyed that part of the part, that part of the discussion as well. Whereas an audio

[00:15:29] Mark: audio is not an audio. Yeah. Why? Yeah.

[00:15:31] Jon: Why isn't it? I think that boiled down to the fact that, um, If you look at historically that the way in which the media that we can consume things on shifted was very, very different between the two. So, so video wasn't necessarily a VHS tape. It had the other transitional phases into, of, into other things.

[00:15:52] Well, it was on

[00:15:53] Brendan: so many different mediums. Let me send that too though. I mean, it was on a wax cylinder and then vinyl and then cassette tape. And then CD. Is that, is that what you were getting at? Is that. Mediums and ways to watch video. Now,

[00:16:06] Jon: I didn't know what, I didn't know what I was saying now. It's by this point in my head, all my sentence in my head last night, didn't it?

[00:16:12] And this might be

[00:16:13] Mark: wrong, but I wonder if it's the fact that we, we say we, we would talk about a video tape and that would be whether it was a VHS or Betamax. We would say it's a video tape. And then we simply just abbreviated video tape to. Um, in the same way that we, you know, uh, abbreviated cassette tape to cassette or, or tape.

[00:16:35] Um, and, and I wonder whether that's the etymology. I wonder where the term video

[00:16:39] Jon: came from. There is literally Latin for IC, um, and that's, that's where it comes. That's where it comes from. And, and Audi has a similar. Uh, similar technology can reach

[00:16:51] Mark: you there. Yeah. So that's what I wonder, you know, we would say I videoed it because it was, it just became that colloquial abbreviation.

[00:17:01] And because we didn't have, we didn't re for whatever reason, we didn't refer to a low audio. Cassette is a, an absolutely. Phrase, it's just not one that we used. Um, so we would say, we would say cassette, and then when video happened, it was then video cassette video tape. And then as we just, as the, the, those devices became more prevalent, we just, we kind of dropped the tape in our colloquial thing.

[00:17:29] And then that became the noun. Yeah. Video became the now and then when you moved on to the internet, It was much easier to make that transition because we already knew what our video was. We knew it wasn't film because we would say a film or a movie. Um, it was, you know, it referred to something that was, you know, usually not on demand, usually not live, um, on a fixed medium of some sort.

[00:17:54] And so that transition was much easier. And that's perhaps why. Uh, having given this no thought or research, maybe that's why we have that particular. Now it's really hard

[00:18:05] Jon: to the archeology of it. But, um, you, you know, you've got to think about the fact that I don't know if, if, uh, if in other dialects of ignorance, just that the case, but we did verb video, but we never have the ability.

[00:18:17] Yeah, which you touched on other things, but I think you touched on it when you were talking about videos. So I can video a video. This, whether that be something that you recorded live using a VHS C camera, or whether that be something that you recorded on your, on your TV, the idea that that's to make.

[00:18:36] Moving pictures. Um, wasn't too, to video some things. So that did kind of translate over.

[00:18:43] Brendan: It's interesting mark, that you brought up film because, you know, we still call things films, even though only the newest star wars are actually recorded until film. And

[00:18:51] Mark: I think as well,

[00:18:52] Jon: weirdly, the, the, there's a, there's a thing between, uh, recording video and recording audio that, um, communities that did those things are quite different.

[00:19:02] So as much as you have, uh, you have professional. Quote, unquote filmmakers who use video. Um, there, there was more of a more mainstream adoption of the technology to make. Oh, you can get

[00:19:18] Mark: your hand up, sir. Um, what role does the music video have to play in this? Because that in itself feels significant. I've still got, I've actually got my hand up.

[00:19:33] I'm going to tell my hand handout. You're an embarrassment. Can I go to the bathroom please? I, yeah. I wonder whether that was the thing, because the music video was a way of taking something that we already knew is as in music and then putting that on, on the screen. Um, and so it, it became then a much more prevalent now.

[00:19:55] Um, music video became video. And so maybe, maybe that's a part of it as well.

[00:20:00] Jon: The, the, a film that's about three or four minutes long. It could be a video.

[00:20:04] Mark: Yeah. It was a entertainment. And that's the thing. The video as a unit of entertainment. Because of music video, uh, maybe yeah, maybe, maybe we've solved it.

[00:20:16] I think Paul quite possibly have, well

[00:20:18] Jon: it's yeah, there was there, there were a number of vectors that converge on it. Um, and uh, yeah, like the thing, the thing I was going to say was, you know, people had video cameras at home, some people did, and they had Sinny cameras at home before that, outside of a market of people who were making kind of quite posted.

[00:20:35] Audio recordings with a bit of music or documentaries and those sorts of things there, there isn't, there isn't a tradition of a domestic user making some thing using audio, but there is a video. So there's, so the way in which the language around that has been negotiated is very, very different. Because of the number of actors and the types of actors who are involved in those processes.

[00:20:58] Mark: Yes. That, that does make sense. Oh, good. That's good. Okay. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It took me a moment to figure out if I, if I was following you, but yeah, likewise, it was only the geekiest of us and I'm sure Brendan did this. I know I did this. You know, audio tapes of some description, whether it was them talking into my hello, this is mark on my radio show.

[00:21:20] I'm now going to play

[00:21:24] Jon: I almost certainly didn't do that.

[00:21:26] Mark: Of course he did. Yeah.

[00:21:28] Brendan: Yeah. I did that with my sister when I was like, uh, five, I think.

[00:21:33] Mark: Absolutely. Um, and so whether, and I've still, my, my speech has not evolved. Uh, since I did that, then I, I stumbled as much as I did when I was doing that 25 years ago.

[00:21:45] Um, I twenty-five years ago, 30 years ago. Good grades anyway. Yeah. Oh boy. Yes. But it it's, I guess. Yeah. It was only the geekiest among us who did that. And it was the, you know, those are the people who grew up to become podcasters or ham radio engineers, whereas. Um, because it just seemed more accessible and also maybe more magical, uh, this idea of the, of the, the camera that you could hold with you.

[00:22:11] And you know, my parents, I think we talked about this on, um, on a thread ages and ages ago. Um, me being one and, and my parents renting a camera, man. Um, cause you couldn't rent the camera cause it was way too expensive, but you could rent a, you could rent a camera boy, um, for an hour. Um, and he would film you, um, and then you would get the tape at the end of it.

[00:22:33] Yeah. I mean, I get that for like weddings. Yeah. This was 1983 Butlins, which is a holiday camp. Um, it might've been Butlins anyway, but yeah, 1983 or four. Um, and there is, there is an hour long video of us in a disco, uh, at a holiday park that my parents. Um, paid, they just, yeah, a dude would just stand and film the entire family

[00:22:57] Brendan: and it makes a lot of sense because then you don't have the, the one family member that's missing from all the old videos.

[00:23:03] Mark: Yes, absolutely. Uh, and then, you know, a couple of years later, you know, they, they rented a, uh, a camera for the weekend and then many, many, many years later they, they bought one and I got fascinated by the camcorder and loved it. Awful films with my friends and all sorts of stuff. And so there was that magical quality to a camcorder didn't exist with.

[00:23:29] And maybe it's because it played into that thing. I'm on the telly, because that was another. Like that genuinely was in the eighties. Your picture being on the tele was incredible. And especially for you a little bit later, if you've got a camera that you could hook up via the RCA cables to your TV, you could then be live on the tele.

[00:23:49] And all of that was, was fascinating. And, um, for whatever reason, that magic didn't translate to audio. And so people didn't recall. That, um, family audio in the same way, because, you know, I guess why would you, that's a strange thing to do.

[00:24:04] Jon: Yeah. And now people aren't going to probably say, oh, well, I'm going to capture this.

[00:24:09] I'm going to capture audio of someone telling a story because they're more likely in the wider picture of the world. They're more likely to grab the camera on their phone and start using the video rather than use it using the audio. And again, it's only probably only people who have. Audio that do that.

[00:24:27] And I know I've, I've just got my idea recorder out, whether it be my actual handheld audio recorder or, um, field recorder on my old phone, um, and recorded my mum, telling family stories. I've done that before. And if, of course my kids saying things out loud, but I think most people tend to capture that on video.

[00:24:42] Um, it's only that isn't it, that I have happened to have those facilities around me because of various things I've done for work over the, over the years that I kind of lead to that. So, so yeah, I think that that's an interesting thing to drop into that discussion about why video and audio. Uh, in those slightly different there's different modes and it's, I'm not saying a proven anything.

[00:25:04] I'm just sort of saying that that kind of opens it, part of that discussion. I think, you know, interesting. Well, it has been an interesting discussion hearing you guys go at it really. Um, similarly related to that smart, the, there was a point you made about community radio that I, I wanted to speak about with you.

[00:25:18] Okay. I don't know if you have the same, um, Tradition in the U S of community rated like this, but, uh, in the UK, we, we do and we, and we have, and you made the point mark that when those people went online, they didn't first themselves as community audio on the internet. And I wondered if you had any thoughts as to why, cause I've got some thoughts for you as to why.

[00:25:41] Mark: Uh, my, my. Simplest thought, uh, is that, um, it started as actual radio, um, community radio would be, you would get a small, well, you'll remember the name of it, of John. Um, but at the subscription service lessons, restricted service license. Thank you. Um, yes. There you go. From the radio academy. No, not the radio academy from anyway.

[00:26:04] Uh, whoever. So people would get a, um, they'd get a restricted service license for a very short distance and they would, they would do their thing. And that's how I started, uh, doing student radio at the university, uh, that we both went to. And, um, that then obviously broadened out into online radio. And then of course you, and for, for a time, of course you would have had both of them.

[00:26:29] Running at the same time where it would have been fairly common to have the RSL and the online thing running. And then, you know, the online just becomes the thing because it's way cheapest, you know? So we have,

[00:26:41] Jon: we have spectrum scarcity, right? So there's, there's a limited number of signals that can go out.

[00:26:47] Um, because they can't overlap on the spectrum and because they can't overlap in terms of prints between transmitters and all these sorts of things, tiny island

[00:26:55] Mark: problems. So spectrum

[00:26:57] Jon: becomes a spectrum, becomes, um, a problem for regulation and control and that regulation control has to be done by a central agency that essentially, uh, a division of, of, of, of a government.

[00:27:12] So community radio stations were and still are able to access parts of that spectrum. If they can prove that they're going to do specific things and they can promise to do certain things and to do them in certain ways and to, uh, respond to the restrictions, put on them by the licensing body, the reason why community radio stations go online.

[00:27:34] Uh, particularly the ones that go online first, before they can get the license and they perform using this sort of radio discourse where they have share tools and they have shows and they have remits and all these other things is because they are. Performing to an expectation of what it takes to gay licensed, because that is the end game is to actually get a proper quote unquote radio license.

[00:27:58] Now what happens subsequently to that? I would, I would contend and I do to actually go and do a proper bit of research for it. But in the nineties you had the RSLs and you had people applying for these chunks of. You also had certainly the opportunity to get real player and to stream your radio shows over the internet.

[00:28:19] And so these people were others at the same time, as Marcus described saying, we've got a bit of spectrum, we've got two weeks to broadcast, but we also want to maintain our audience so will go online so they can come back to us after, after the fact and this tradition of coming. Radio stations on the internet comes from that, which means that now if you're going to start a service that broadcasts audio to a shared tool online, The language around it is already a language of radio

[00:28:56] Brendan: in terms of what podcasting is coming forward for me. I have a new series of, uh, nobody asked for this coming out today on Friday. So if anybody's interested, I'll have a link in the show notes. It's my music podcasts. It's really fun. It's weird. And I hope you enjoy it. I would love to hear, uh, you know, what other podcasts things you guys have coming up as

[00:29:16] Jon: well, but I have

[00:29:17] Mark: to bail, uh, to John.

[00:29:18] Um, you can find them all over the podcasting world@btlpodcast.com, where we talk about the Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy at thread. Um, basically tries to fix me as a human being and, uh, also run a pod.com where him and Nick, um, talk all about running and adjacent tech. So if any of that captures catches your fancy, then you can follow the links in the show notes.

[00:29:43] Thank you again, John, for joining us in this bit of bit rate.