Endings

[00:00:00] Mark: Welcome to a special series of bit rate. If you're subscribed to the feed, you might notice a bunch of new episodes have appeared all at once. And that's because Brendan and I are back with a limited series all about burnout, why it happens, how we can prevent it, or how we can know when it's finally time to put a show out to pasture.

[00:00:22] We've got a bunch of great guests, including Dan Mizener of Pacific content. Andrew Ackerman of the new. Podcast. Uh, but this one is just Brendan and me clambering back onto the bit rate horse throw final few rides, wave metaphor, cue the music.

[00:00:38] Hi, Brendan Hutchins from the podcast advocate network.

[00:00:52] Brendan: Hey Mark Steadman from podium. This

[00:00:56] Mark: is, this is, this is nice.

[00:00:59] Brendan: Back to normal. Yep.

[00:01:01] Mark: Nothing's changed. How, what did you do over the

[00:01:04] Brendan: summer break? Oh yeah. Yeah. Summer then fall. And then winter.

[00:01:11] It's been a long time. Yeah. Uh, thanks listeners for sticking around. I don't know if he'll even want to hear that kind of stuff. Yeah. I don't think I particularly do when I'm listening to a podcast. I don't know. When the hosts talk about their time off?

[00:01:28] Mark: Well, well, that's tricky because that's exactly what I did made John did in our latest episode of threat, but that show is as much about us as it is about anything else.

[00:01:38] So I guess, um, yeah. Um, no, I mean, you know, we, we did things, but we're, we're back and we're back for a limited run. Um, and we're going to be talking all about burnout. Uh, as I think it's going to be appropriate. I have been

[00:01:52] Brendan: thinking about this topic for quite some time and trying to ponder it, trying to figure out what I want to say about it.

[00:02:00] And I, I still don't know. But, uh, but I, I'm very curious to talk to you about it. And so, yeah, I have had some questions for you. You put a post up on Twitter recently that you were leaving Twitter. Um, you also made a Facebook post as well. Uh, talking about going off of Twitter. Um, I believe. Gone off of Twitter before and at least for, for fits and spurts.

[00:02:25] So whatever, um,

[00:02:27] Mark: what I've done before is just not open the app. Um, and, and just not looked at Twitter and that works for a time. And. Uh, it, it comes back again and the, the need to check Twitter or the need to tweet, which is more of my thing. It's, it's, uh, I think both, both, uh, are very much there. The muscle memory is sort of there.

[00:02:47] I'm still checking things. And now I have one fewer app to check and to pull, to pull, pull to refresh. But, um, so this time I still didn't have the, um, The brave bravery would be the wrong word, but I still don't have the balls to fully disconnect and delete my account. Um, because I. Giving up the name, which is the same name I use in so many other places.

[00:03:15] Um, it felt, felt like a, not a good idea because those names get, can get snapped up by automated bots very quickly and easily. Um, so what I did is I set my account to. Private, which you can do in Twitter so that no one who doesn't follow you can read your tweets. And then I unfollowed everyone. Oh, nice.

[00:03:38] Um, and so that basically means I can tweet to my heart's content if I want to, but no one can read it because I now don't follow anyone.

[00:03:48] Brendan: So only the people that you follow

[00:03:50] Mark: will see. Uh, I think, yeah, I, I, it, I have to give people permission. Gotcha. Um, to follow me. Um, and as far as I am aware by now moving my account to private and unfollowing, everyone, I think that has had the effect of, um, making myself invisible to everyone.

[00:04:13] No,

[00:04:15] Brendan: that's not

[00:04:19] Mark: the reasoning behind it for me. I've had what I've been thinking about for awhile. This idea of, uh, a pocket kind of termed it as a pocket audience, but that's not really the right word. Um, it sort of, it started many years ago because in the early days of Twitter, you could carry around a small group of people in your pocket.

[00:04:40] And it was quite an amazing. Um, and you could actually do stuff with that group and leverage it. And they, you know, they, they could use you and lovely hive-mind stuff and we would organize things and actually go out and, um, and do things as a community. Fairly local, um, where it came to to a group. We, we were, um, a nice little enclave in 2007, um, because people that year had gone to south by Southwest.

[00:05:11] So there used to be funding available, uh, not to go too far into the weeds, but these to be funding available, um, in, in our city to go to south by. And that happened to be the year Twitter blew up. And so. Uh, a few of our contingent who were already internet savvy people came and discovered Twitter basically brought it back to Birmingham and said, y'all should be on this.

[00:05:32] Um, and so, yeah, and so sort of halfway through 2007, I started using Twitter and. Very quickly fell in love with it and had a small circle. And what ended up happening is that that picture in my mind, that I built up of these people darkened over time and became this cloud and became this sort of shadowy board of people that I was always trying to please.

[00:05:54] And I was always trying to make things to please this board. Sometimes they would be pleased by things. And I wouldn't know what the formula was. I'd just go, oh, I did it. Yes, I did the thing. And then brilliant. I've struck lightening in a bowl and then that, and then you do something else and it just be complete indifference and, um,

[00:06:14] Brendan: look up.

[00:06:14] This was just like what you guys wanted. What's what's up?

[00:06:17] Mark: I see. I, I carried on just making things and I only realized, um, I think in the last two or three days, that basically podcasting for me was the quickest route. Um, w I think we'll talk about this a little bit later. It was the quickest route to shortcut the approval.

[00:06:40] Um, the, the sort of seeking and getting approval cycle that you can go through and get that brain chemistry thing. So you make a thing. Um, and then maybe the first or couple of the first time, or the first few times you put the thing out because it's new or because there's not that many people doing it, you.

[00:07:01] Feedback, you get people listening and discussions happen, and then you make a new thing and then you keep going and you, you try to engender more of those conversations. And what happens is you get less of them for whatever reason. And I've never made stuff. That's lit the internet of flame. Um, I've always made stuff that I, you know, begun to enjoy.

[00:07:20] Um, So because of that, this feedback loop was never getting fed, but I was always chasing it. I was always chasing that first high. I was always chasing that first, those first few moments of, oh my God, I've put a podcast out into the internet in 2008 and people listen to it and they commented on it. And, um, that, you know, this, this, this, this is fun.

[00:07:44] Not that many people know what a podcast is, so that's fine. Uh, and then you, you know, I finished that series and go onto the next one for whatever reasons. And it was never quite the same. And it's taken me a, an embarrassingly long amount of time, basically 10 years to realize that. The right way to do things.

[00:08:07] And so leading to the, the Facebook post, I sort of made this, uh, it was, it was really, it wasn't intended to sort of be a bold declaration or anything, but, um, to, to read you a short excerpt, I said, um, I've got some ideas for creative pursuits in 2019, and I won't be making them for the shadowy panel of judges that sits in my head.

[00:08:26] It's not for them. It's for someone else. Uh, this includes podcasts. I think I've made my last for awhile. By that is that I don't think I want to start a new podcast project. Um, obviously we w you know, we've, um, we've got a loophole here because this is an existing practice. That's fine. Um, yes, I was wondering about it.

[00:08:46] Yeah, no, no, it's a, it's completely fine. Uh, it's, it's legal, um, with w um, I've had so many. Ideas for shows over the last six months of things that I was pretty certain would be great ideas. And, and, um, I've still got one that I'd like to do. And that's the one that burned a hole in my, in my brain in the same way that the hitchhikers show did, it was it's been percolating for a long while.

[00:09:16] I don't want to make a thing, um, and hope that it will get a reception. Yeah. And I don't want to make a, I think actually more of it is I don't necessarily want to make a, a thing every week and have that short lived. Oh yeah. Burst. And that, that, that need for approval. Um, uh, you know, the, the internet is telling me I'm a good boy.

[00:09:37] I'm not burnt out on the creativity side. I'm starting a new project at the moment and I'm having a blast with it. And, uh, it's a writing project and I'd like to actually approach, you know, a literary agent or an, a publisher. Once I've got something that I think is, is in the right shape. Um, and I want to actually go through.

[00:09:57] For real and not short circuit. It not think that I can, uh, I mean, I keep using the phrase short-circuit or shortcut because it really that's what it has been. It's like thinking that you can go from zero to adulation, uh, because the internet is a democracy. Um, there is value in that as, as a, as a, as a concept, but I, I think that the dream.

[00:10:21] Is only available to a small few and, uh, you know, I've, I've not been one of them, so I'd like to try something. More traditional and, and actually try and make something and know that it's gone through a real rigorous approval process. Yeah,

[00:10:34] Brendan: I completely, I completely get that. Um, some of my podcast projects in the past have been, uh, or most of them have been very.

[00:10:43] Uh, editing heavy and a lot of pre-work to, to actually get it started, to get it going and get it produced. And very, very few of my podcasts I've ever been regular and weekly and, and consistent schedule. Uh, and it's mostly because I'm. Shift gears, hunker down and do a lot of prep work and keep it private until it's, until it's ready to go out.

[00:11:07] Sometimes I'm really happy with the end result. Sometimes I make a few episodes and realize, oh, the first episode wasn't as good as I thought it was going to be. Um, and you know, that was partially, you know, cause I was learning with each episode, uh, going along, um, specifically unplaced. But when I had my first episode one, I was super happy with it.

[00:11:29] By the time I got to episode three, I was not happy with episode one anymore at all. Yes. And, uh, and it's kind of a bummer too, because, you know, especially with something that's meant to be listened to in order, somebody has to go through episode one to get to episode three, episode three, and I'm like, okay, well, hopefully they'll stick through an hour's worth.

[00:11:50] And. Get there and they've, I've wanted to go back and remaster episode one and just haven't been able to find the time and the, um, uh, you know, just the space in my schedule to be able to do that kind of thing. If, if I was able to do the whole season at one time, I would be able to be like, okay, I've got an episode three and.

[00:12:11] Going back to episode one. I can hear that. I need to, I've learned some things have changed. Some things I want to incorporate more call backs, call forwards, that kind of stuff. Um, that would have benefited me a lot. And hopefully with episode with, with season two of them placed, that type of thing is going to be more incorporated.

[00:12:30] That's what I'm trying to work on now. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:35] Mark: With certain types of projects, um, you, you get to do drafts and yeah, we, we rarely get to do that. All we really think to do that, especially, um, obviously, you know, w when it's a week by week thing, I mean, I've not listened back to the original, um, first few episodes of where the leopard and that, you know, that only started in, uh, summer of 2017.

[00:12:58] And I I'm certain, if I listened back, I would be kind of horrified by, by how it started. Yeah. Um, but that's just the nature of, you know, getting better things, but yeah, like we don't get to, we don't get to just make new drafts. I mean, you know, I I've already rewritten, um, or dated and improved the chapter.

[00:13:18] One of this thing I'm writing and. Uh, that if I'd have put that out, you know, chapter one is a podcast that would have been it. Yep. And move on to the next thing and you don't get that chance to iterate. And, um, that's really, really important.

[00:13:37] Why, why is it so hard? It's so hard to actually say this is finished. This is done. We have to stop.

[00:13:44] Brendan: The episode topic more or less of this, of this episode of the burnout series is about endings. And one of the reasons why I wanted to start with you quitting Twitter, is that the way that I was looking at it, it was very similar to ending a podcast in that you have, you have this.

[00:14:01] I look to me, one of the big reasons it's hard to stop a podcast is the subscribers. You have that subscriber number, which, you know, luckily on podium, you don't really have to worry about it anymore, but like, uh, because you refocused it more on listens instead of like a fake subscriber number that you manufacturer.

[00:14:18] But for the most part, people think that, that they have a set number of subscribers. And when you close a podcast, do you just lose that? Kind of a, a tent. I'll take a Stedman trademark tangent here and talk about, um, the podcast missing Richard Simmons. Um, once that series ended, they just rebranded the series and started a whole new, the same production company started a whole new podcast.

[00:14:44] Yeah. A lot of people were just like, uh, WTF. What's this new podcast I have all of a sudden. And, uh, uh, it's interesting. Like I, from, from the producer side of it, I totally get it. You don't want to lose those tens of thousands, probably of subscribers and all that ad revenue. You can just get instantly, you don't have to rebuild the audience.

[00:15:05] You don't have to, you don't have to put a teaser trailer on the old feed to get them described, subscribe to the new feed and get all that transferring and everything. Like there's not an easy mechanism in podcast apps and, uh, the RSS spec and everything to. Move somebody to a new thing while keeping the old thing.

[00:15:27] And so, um, like that, that's why the connection I made with Twitter is that you just more or less shut off a big audience that was following you. Um, and the similar thing that people do with podcasts, if they want, if they want or have to end them, I've, I've started and ended many, uh, Podcasts podcasts projects.

[00:15:51] Most of them I've been able to walk away from not with a big, heavy heart or anything. Cause I didn't work too hard to build up an audience. In fact, I haven't really worked too hard to build up in the audience. I've just been thankful for the people that have come to any of the projects that I've worked on.

[00:16:09] But I, I found a surprising in particular success with podcast playlist, which was really my first patch podcast project. And. It's always. I kind of loomed over me since then, because I never did a farewell episode. I never, uh, just closed the account. I never told people, like I actually started, nobody asked for this, you should come over there and actually started bit rate.

[00:16:35] You should come over there. And I. I haven't done anything with it. I just left it there. Cause I didn't want to say goodbye. I didn't want to call an official end to it. I, I have pretty much like 99.7% decided I'm not probably ever going to come back to it to make proper episodes. And they would just, um, maybe put in an ad or a suggestion or whatever to go to another feed.

[00:17:04] It's it's super hard to make that commitment to, to ending something. When I know that there's hundreds of people subscribed to that feed and they, and like, I still, I look at it occasionally I'm still getting downloads, which surprises me. Um, since I'm not publicizing it all, I have no idea how people are finding it.

[00:17:23] That just do, and it's amazing. Um, but it's, it's also like those people are just. It's kind of interesting. They're just getting a one-off product. They're just getting a one-off, uh, thing with no longevity or no, um, constant, um, reward system built into it, which is, which is in itself a pretty interesting thing.

[00:17:49] you've ended a few shows, um, mood elevator, and the 2014 show. And. And others. How do you decide what to do with it when you're done? It's interesting, actually,

[00:17:59] Mark: because there was a long time between making one of my older favorite shows, which is a zombie themed panel show

[00:18:07] Brendan: starting with

[00:18:08] Mark: yes. Yes. There was a time when I wasn't running a podcast hosting company that, that, that existed.

[00:18:15] And I think I must've. I must've just hosted the files or just move them around from internet bucket to internet bucket, really. Um, but I think, and, uh, you know, if you are going to end a show, um, that you know that there are options and I think a really good one, if you don't want to pay for the feed, if no, one's sort of thinking, because I think.

[00:18:35] If it's reached a natural end, I think you really should keep it up because it's probably got longevity. Um, you know, unless it's a show, that's really just talking about the week's news. Um, then you know, there may be not, but who knows? I'm sure people would still go back and listen to shows like the bugle, for example.

[00:18:53] People do write in occasionally with those kinds of shows and say that they've, they've listened to, you know, back catalog or whatever. Yeah. But if it's not, and if no, one's going to be prepared to, to keep posting the files, then a site like archive.org is a great place to be able to just put the audio, because then at least it's not going to be subscribed bubble as a theater or anything.

[00:19:12] Um, well you, you, you probably could knock something together. That would be, uh, a feed that would work, but

[00:19:17] Brendan: it's, you know, feed burner and. A couple of things. Yeah. Yeah. Some kind of,

[00:19:22] Mark: you know, sellotape and, and stuff that would stick it all together and superglue and things you'll make something, but just having the audio up and archive, archive.org, we'll, we'll host it for free.

[00:19:32] Um, and, and so that's a really good thing to do because I think it can be very easy to walk away from a project and go, well, that's the end of that. I'm never going to need. To revisit that. And so often that is such a regrettable, um, position. Like it's so easy to regret that position and it's so easy to fix.

[00:19:55] There are, there are so many different types of endings like that, but to me what's more important. Yeah. Figuring out exactly when, and, and to me, there is only one answer and it's when it's no longer enjoyable to make it. Um, w for whatever reason, because it's too stressful or because, uh, finding guests is, is too difficult.

[00:20:15] Whenever it stops being fun or enjoyable to make. Um, because one of the things I think we should stress is like the position where coming from, I think, and, and it's going to be the same for, for a lot of people is we're not talking about podcasts that are, are in themselves

[00:20:30] Brendan: businesses. Right. We're talking about hobbies.

[00:20:33] We are talking about the

[00:20:33] Mark: Mo the, the vast, vast majority of podcasts, which are labors of love. And if it's not fun to make it anymore, then don't put yourself through it. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the questions that I asked myself late last year when I was thinking about a leopard and thinking about other shows and actually asking myself like, cause my default thing is always, but I love making podcasts and then I sort of went, all right, mark.

[00:20:58] Do I? Yeah. What aspect of it do I actually enjoy? Because I don't like writing the scripts. I find it. I find it hard. Don't I it's hard to do. Editing is fun for the first bit, but I've got to arrange the audio files and find the sync point and that's nightmare. And then I've got to cope with drift, and then I've got to figure out someone's awful internet connection and what that's done to their thing.

[00:21:22] And someone's got to shorten their microphone and it's made them sound or wobbly. Okay. Go get the audio from Skype. And now I've got to deal with the Skype delay and move this bit of laughter. So it covers this bit of Skype delay delete this bit where someone coughed, like that's not fun. And then you've got to write the show notes and that's really not fun.

[00:21:39] And I kind of realized actually the bit I enjoy is this bit, like it's the gabbing on, as you can very

[00:21:45] Brendan: well tell.

[00:21:46] Mark: And I'm like, wait, so when it stops, honestly, I do think, and I'd like, like I would welcome any anyone's descends on this, but I, to my mind, when to end it is, is when it's no longer

[00:21:59] Brendan: fun. Yeah. I would agree with that.

[00:22:01] I mean, for obviously for leopard, you built in an end date with the, with the alphabet structure. Yeah. I think that it can be a good idea to end something before it becomes unfun, having it continuing on after it becomes unfunded is just not good for anybody. Um, I mean, it could be good for the people who just really want to listen to that.

[00:22:27] Um, they, they loved that show and they didn't never want it to end. I'm actually kind of having that feeling with, with Harmontown like Dan, Harmon's been talking for the past a couple of months, maybe about. How, he's not sure how much longer Hermantown is going to be around. Yeah. And, and he said some interesting things about it, too.

[00:22:48] How, um, he thinks he'd want it to go on for at least another year to be able to wind down and prepare people found fascinating like that. I mean, I just think it's awesome that. Conscientious of his audience. You're obviously very connected to them. Cause it's, you know, it's different, it's a live show. So he gets immediate feedback and.

[00:23:10] But he doesn't get the after feedback cause he, he doesn't go on Reddit or Twitter. So, um, he takes care of himself that way. Yeah, sort of. Yeah, he's an interesting guy, but this is a fun show. It's one of my favorite shows. I just, uh, I don't want it to end, but I also don't want it to drag on longer than it's than its natural time.

[00:23:28] Mark: There's a, there's a lot of shows like, um, another comedy show, Paula Tompkins, um, spontaneous, spontaneous nation. He warned people. Months in advance, um, that, that, that was going to come to an end, uh, episode 200, which is only around the corner. In fact, it will, it will have been out before this as, um, I think, and that is that, that that's been a sort of nicely.

[00:23:53] Well-managed thing. I think thrilling adventure hour was another one that was well-timed is fairly well managed. And that one really? Yeah, that really made me sad when it went away. Um, cause I discovered it far too late and I binged it and then I got to the point and it only lasted for a few, for a few months where it was listening every week.

[00:24:11] Yeah. And then to, to, you know, to have this relationship with a show and then suddenly to go away was, um, was a very great shame. Um, but it was, it was handled with deference and with understanding from, from the, the writers that they knew that this was something that people loved. And I feel that that's probably a hard line to walk between knowing that you've got an audience to serve and sort of being.

[00:24:41] Arrogant about it, like at that feels a hard, a hard line.

[00:24:44] Brendan: Yeah. Thinking back on those examples that you gave and from the perspective of the listener, I definitely feel better about podcasts that know they're going to have. And are able to give boarding and give some, some time for the, for the listener to really have it sink in and not just end, not just disappeared because I'm also thinking about like, I was a big fan and followed almost every show, uh, made by Dan Benjamin, even he has had he's left a long trail of shows behind him.

[00:25:21] And similar to how I've done things. Uh, and maybe I just picked up, you know, because I listened to so much of his work, um, that I mimicked him, but he doesn't typically give a formal end to a show. He just lets the feed, stay there and he doesn't produce an episode until he's ready to come back to it. And.

[00:25:44] That as a, as a listener, that always, it kept me wanting, but also made me really sad. Cause I would be like, I haven't listened to quit and forever what happened to quit or the podcast method or, or all these different shows. And um, I mean, like I've probably the biggest example of knowing there was an end was the talk show, but that was the big controversy with it and everything with, uh, John moving solo.

[00:26:10] But otherwise like. Would often wonder and, um, let's see. What was the other one, uh, frequency with, with, um, Hattie, like they, they ended it, they came back for a couple episodes. They ended it, they started a new version of it, and then they ended that and, and, and there wasn't a lot of, uh, disclosure about what was actually happening with it.

[00:26:36] So it wasn't really. It was a, it was a, it was a longterm doubt, prolonged, uh, uh, painful. And as opposed to just letting the, the listener know, Hey, you know, this, this actually isn't going to work in our schedule or we've, we've run out of juice for this one. And we're just going to let this one sit. Going through this conversation with you, I'm realizing, but I definitely want to make sure I incorporate more of that into the things that I produce and have, uh, if, if, if nothing, if not even just for the audience, but even for myself to have.

[00:27:12] Th to tell myself that, yes, this is going to end. I'm going to produce this many episodes. I'm going to try and wrap everything up before the season finale of sorts.

[00:27:26] every day, since we, um, uh, put out our last episode with Tom merit, I have thought about bed rate. And I have thought about w wanting to come back, wanting to dive in, talk with you every week. And. Talk about the podcast industry that I love. And every time I think about it, I think I'm just not ready. I don't know how to find the time I have all these other projects I want to be doing.

[00:27:54] And I don't, I don't want to do, I don't want to prioritize another project over this. I don't want to project this over another project. Uh, prioritize. And, and I just didn't know how to, um, to juggle all that. Juggling all that caused me a lot of burnout, not even doing the project was just thinking about the project caused me a lot of burnout.

[00:28:17] Um, And you, you talked about on thread and I shared with you the, the recent article about, um, millennial burnout. Uh, it was, uh, a great Buzzfeed article that is in the show notes where, you know, millennials are fighting this, uh, fatigue from. All the little things in life that just seemed to keep piling up.

[00:28:41] And I think the artist article put it together beautifully and I'd recommend anybody that's interested in that. Read that because it was pretty cathartic too. To see w that, you know, you're not, it's always cathartic to see that you're not alone. And somebody else feels similar to you or articulate something that you didn't even realize you were kind of feeling with with the amount of things that go into a podcast that we've talked about.

[00:29:04] The, the, the planning, the recording, the editing, the posting, the, uh, you know, put the show notes, the social media. Is it possible to podcast with. Causing that kind of fatigue to not have that kind of burnout. And if so, I guess what I really want to ask is how many is too many? How many, how many podcasts can a person do?

[00:29:28] Uh, how much podcasts and can a person take before they, they get themselves worn out? Do they have to stick with one, if they have a full-time job or can they do multiple. Or I guess I'm trying to have my own intervention is what I'm saying.

[00:29:44] Mark: Um, I think I, yeah, no, I, I completely get it. If I think of two examples of people who do lots of podcasts and have them for a long time.

[00:29:57] Um, it's Tom Merritt and Scott Johnson. Yeah. And what both of those have in common and I think would be the same for the, um, I want to say no agenda and I didn't mean them. Um, actually Twitters is another one, um, this week in tech that, that whole network, um, They're all live to tape and not live to tape in the way that five by five, that Dan Benjamin talks about, where like they do a little bit of editing here in that.

[00:30:28] No, no, it's literally what you hear is, is what's recorded and depending on the kind of show you do that may involve a lot of work on the front end instead of the backend. W th the mentality is different though, when you know you're and Tom talked about this, when, when we interviewed him, like, if you know that you're recording a live show, your brain works differently.

[00:30:49] You don't rate, you know, that if you've screwed up, you just barrel straight on through. You don't worry about it because your brain knows that there's no do-over. Whereas when there is. Um, when there's that opportunity, you, you go over it again and again, and you want to get it just right. And then that adds more editing time.

[00:31:05] So the, I think it is possible to have lots of podcasts. You just have to figure out like, one of the things that I talked about with the. The video series that I've done, which I want to do. Another one of is talking about spreading the load. And if you've got a team, like I, I came to, um, the, where the leopard team a few weeks, a couple of months ago, and I said, lads, I can't do this Twitter.

[00:31:29] Dance anymore. It's doing my head in, I keep writing, like I'm writing several of these little, uh, funny little tweets and things to be scheduled out throughout the week to promote the episode. And I looked at the numbers and it's crushing my soul because no one's clicking. It's just please someone else do it.

[00:31:48] Um, and someone else did it and they did a much better job than, than I could. And it's only because I asked it's, you know, they weren't, they weren't lazy and not doing it. It's just no, no one asked. And so, because I said, look, can someone do this? Someone did, in fact, two of them took up the mantle between them.

[00:32:03] Oh, that's. And. Great guns. Um, and so getting help with it will make such a big difference and getting someone that can share the load with you. Um, bitrate wouldn't work without both of us. Let's say it's like, I couldn't do this without you. Um, because you put all the, the front matter work in and then I get to Jabber Jabber, Jabber, and then I enjoy editing.

[00:32:26] You know, and, and yeah, so it's, um, yeah. Find the bit that you love doing the most and try and find ways to delegate the rest of it, because it should be

[00:32:36] Brendan: fun. Uh, we might get to this on a future episode, but I w I had been planning and prepping a podcast for about a year and a half now. And, uh, Just like finally getting to the point where, uh, and I have a couple other people involved and, um, pretty much it's going to be like, all right, you guys can have everything that I've contributed to this and just go and do it yourself because I just can't, uh, I just can't commit.

[00:33:08] I can't find the time. I can't like find the. Mental fortitude to be able to actually, you know, cause it'd be something that I'd want to do on a schedule. It'd be something that I'd want to do a lot of prep before each episode, uh, and, and research so that I know what I'm talking about and it's not going to be something that I can write a script for because it's going to be a conversation it's going to be, I'm going to, I'm going to need to be able to have enough in my head.

[00:33:37] To be conversant. Hear it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And like, I feel like that's usually something that I can do with podcasts because I am just constantly in the world of podcasts. Um, but this other one is more about politics and where I listened to a lot of stuff about politics. I. Like I'm, I'm not a history buff.

[00:33:57] I didn't study politics a lot and I'm just, I have a lot of opinions and I obviously, I wanted to share them with everybody and get them to be on my side, but it doesn't work that way just by sheer wants to have a compelling argument. I have to, I have to have a reasoned argument, something that with, with backing and with, with thoughts and, um, that doesn't come naturally to me.

[00:34:24] And so, uh, because of that, it's something that I've, I've wanted to do forever. And especially in this moment now where things are so political, that it seems like politics is in everyone's mind, not even in the U S but around the world. And, um, political podcasts are really taking off. I thought like, oh man, this is going to be the perfect time I might actually make, uh, like I might be able to make something that could be.

[00:34:52] Kind of viral English kind of go somewhere, maybe get some sponsors, maybe really take off. And it's just too overwhelming. I can't even, I can't even start it because I'm just so overwhelmed with it. Um, but before you just put the, the prep and the

[00:35:06] Mark: idea of it, I completely like, I completely get that. Um, I had a different view in my head.

[00:35:14] Um, with how leopard was going to be received than, than it was. And I think I'd said to myself at the time was, this is the last one. This is, if I can't make this work, then I've got no business doing this. Um, because this is. It's got everything that a podcast should have. Um, it's got compelling. Co-hosts who can, who are intelligent and who can, who are, uh, articulate.

[00:35:38] Um, I, you know, I bought everyone microphone so that we would sound as good as we can. We don't always, don't always hit the mark, but try, um, and it's researched and it's got a niche and, uh, there's effort put into it. And like it had, yeah, all of

[00:35:54] you

[00:35:54] Brendan: hit all the numbers. I,

[00:35:56] Mark: I, I, I did all the things metrics.

[00:35:58] I was a good boy and didn't do what I thought it would do. Um, and it is that, you know, it does give the lie to the phrase, the good content flows to the top or automatically gets discovered because it's not, not true. With a good network will get discovered, but that being good on its own, isn't, isn't going to do it.

[00:36:21] And I'm also aware that that's a very easy stance to take and it can lead to being a bittered. It can lead to entitlement and that's a really dangerous road to go down because that can get so toxic. That sense of I deserve an audience, right. Um, I straight white male, um, Deserve this mouthpiece because no one will listen to me.

[00:36:44] You don't want to start thinking, thinking those thoughts. And, and so with, with leopard, I always knew like, okay, Um, come out of the traps exactly as I wanted, but I've every intention of making the best show that I can and finish seeing it through to its natural, to its natural conclusion. I think knowing that it's, uh, an inherently finite series anyway, I think that's actually helped.

[00:37:09] That makes sense. Um, because I know

[00:37:10] Brendan: there's an end point. Yeah. Well, I do, I do have to say. Like a lot of the podcasts I've done have been seasonal. And I I'm, I'm guessing with, with the way that my, with my burnout, the way my networks a bit rate would probably turn to a sort of seasonal type, uh, scenario as well.

[00:37:31] But like with nobody asks for this. We just record for like a few hours and then I break it up into a half dozen episodes and put those out whenever I can get to editing. Um, unplaced is, you know, written and produced by another person. And I just do the editing for it. I'm the school. Right. And yeah. And so I just, I do that all when it's ready for me.

[00:37:53] Um, uh, serendipity city kind of was every other week and. Just recently has kind of like turned into a more seasonal break, uh, situation. And so that's, that's going to be good for me because unplaced is going to fill the void where serendipity city was, uh, that that's gonna, that's going to be pretty great.

[00:38:13] Um, packets playlist was supposed to be seasonal and kind of like having a theme per season. And, and for me that, that sort of structure works a lot. Works really well for me because it can be. I can ha I can tell the audience more or less with delineated seasons that right, this, this here, here's a block of work and here's a block of break and it helps both.

[00:38:37] I feel like with communication and with me structuring the time that I'm going to actually put into something and make a product

[00:38:45] Mark: unplaced has a unique challenge as well, because you're making original music. Um, for, for every episode. Um, and so that's, that's, again, that's a lot of work sort of on the, on the pre slash post production end.

[00:38:58] Um, you've really got to be, I guess, going through the source material quite heavily to make sure that you get the beats right. And, and the tone of the music is right and all that kind of stuff. And that is, yeah, that is a lot of work.

[00:39:11] Brendan: It really is. It's a lot of fun, uh, I have to say. Um, but yeah, like I'll, I'll do the.

[00:39:18] For the, the monologue, uh, which actually for season two is going to be a dialogue and, um, possibly more characters, which is really exciting, but I'll do the rough edit for the speech and then I'll export that and move it over to my, uh, score, um, project in, in logic. And I'll, I'll start, you know, making the music as it, uh, as it applies to the scenes.

[00:39:44] And then. I will kind of edit the spacing. So that of, of the, uh, of the dialogue. Yeah. In line so that I can kind of give myself a little bit extra time, so things can be on the beat and measured correctly. And then I'll go back to the original and make those edits again because, uh, it doesn't sound like it transfers over and it'd be, it'd be just, I don't, I don't know if it would be too much for my brain or too much for logic, but I don't want to keep the soundtrack and the, um, Uh, the dialogue and sound effects and soundscaping all in the same project.

[00:40:20] To me, it makes more sense to have them in separate because one, because one, I have it set up with, uh, with time as the time bar at the top. Yes. Minutes and seconds in the musical one, I have beats and measures.

[00:40:39] Mark: As we, uh, as we wrap this particular episode up, um, what are you up to? And, and, uh, it's, it's in the, the age old thing. What are you up to and where can people find your phone work? Brendan?

[00:40:49] Brendan: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so anybody can find me@podcastadvocate.network. I'm also at podcast advocate on. Or, I mean, that's like the that's like the network I run.

[00:41:01] You could also find me at the pod playlist on Twitter, or you can also find me at punchy, sir, because I am now the official podcast librarian for punch chaser. That is an all

[00:41:11] Mark: gust titles.

[00:41:14] Brendan: Yeah. Yeah. I am the second, uh, official podcast librarian in existence after my aunt. I'm pretty disgust Mayan, pioneered this wonderful position, uh, from radio.

[00:41:26] Um, I have, you know, I just decided that I was a good enough kind of sewer of all podcasts to declare if you want a podcast recommendation, come to me and I can tell you a good

[00:41:38] Mark: one. Just make sure we do it quietly. Otherwise you'll say

[00:41:41] Brendan: yes. Yeah, yeah. This is, this is the internet library that you're in. So be quiet, you're

[00:41:47] Mark: respectful.

[00:41:47] Um, you can only borrow three podcasts at a time.

[00:41:50] Brendan: Yeah, exactly. Uh, so yeah, so I've been making a whole bunch of lists and stuff on with really cool list functionality. So kind of made some, like, if you like this, then you might like these types of podcasts. I just made one for a short news podcast. So if you like the daily, you might.

[00:42:09] CBCs front burner or, uh, the Washington Post's, uh, post reports or, um, there's a, there's now a parody of all those different types of podcasts called the Sunday show on Starburns audio even got that listed in there. So, um, so yeah, so hit us up at punchy racer or at the pop playlist. Okay. Some podcast recommendations gone.

[00:42:31] How about you, mark? What have you been up to since our lung?

[00:42:35] Mark: Mostly, um, doing more potent things. Um, potent.co is where you'll find that, uh, and you will find me, um, in a park, um, I was going to say in a park drinking cider, but that has sort of dark connotations. Um, you'll find me wassailing, um, which is a, uh, the tradition of ringing in the harvest and blessing the apple trees and an orchard.

[00:42:57] Um, and, and it's done on the 12th night of the year, uh, which, uh, at the time of recording, this is, and, uh, so that's, that's why that's where you will have found me, um, yeah. Uh, making, uh, making noise to ward off evil spirits and a blessing. Um, because I'm a pagan now, apparently, but you know what, if you want to get in touch, we want to say hello.

[00:43:24] How about this? How about you email me Mark Steadman dot IO. There you go. If you've got something nice to say, um, if you, if you, well, if you haven't, um, Mark Steadman dot IO, drop me an email cause. That that's probably the best way to get in touch. That make sense. I ain't got no Twitter anymore. Um, this has been, this has been lovely.

[00:43:44] Um, this is, uh, a, what they call, what will the young people like to do now is it's a, it's a bingeable mini series. So, uh, stick with us. Um, There'll be another episode along in just a minute.

Pardon the intrusion

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