[00:00:00] Aaron: The whole top of your feet is what the hell was that? What,
[00:00:11] Mark: sorry, that was me. That was me saying the word blank.
[00:00:25] Brendan: Hey Mark Steadman at Podiant.
[00:00:26] Mark: Hey, Brendan Hutchins at the podcast advocate network.
[00:00:29] Brendan: And Hey, Aaron Wong from downtown, or nobody has to this, or do you want to be introduced to him? I should have asked you first just from life, man. Hey, Aaron Wong from life. Thanks for joining us.
[00:00:38] Mark: Perfect life. Don't talk to me about life. So, uh, we have, uh, some up on, uh, podcasts and, uh, some new ones. Yes, absolutely. We had some mutual homework. Um, I went spelunking in the archives of, um, the incomparable. Great. Ah, sadly, unable to find the text adventure. I think they have been removed from the feed they're available on the web, but they've been removed from the feed and I'm I'm I can only imagine they've been put on another feed, but I can't find what the feed is.
[00:01:10] Brendan: I just listened to them also in preparation and, uh, they're in overcast. How strange? Very, very strange, but, okay, so you listen to. Yeah. Um,
[00:01:19] Mark: I've already got history as, as, as a, have a prize as having liked that show. And I still do. And, uh, I, I very much like the, uh, the feuding families, which has nothing to do with a popular TV game show, uh, that kind of stuff.
[00:01:34] I mean, some of the, some of the, the, the topics are not things I know about, but, you know, you just gotta enjoy that, uh, enjoy the gay banter. Um, and, uh, it's, it's, there's lots of it and it's, it's fun and irreverent. It's a, it's a good, it's a good listen. Um, I like a panel show. What can I say? And then a jeweler check
[00:01:53] Brendan: out a sleepover.
[00:01:54] I did,
[00:01:55] Mark: um, I listened to the, um, the first of the new season, which is interesting. So there's the, the story of these three people, which are each bringing a problem, um, to a hotel in Vancouver and. The first one was this, um, multi or certainly millionaire 40 year old millionaire. And I thought it was interesting because I think it walked the line really of trying to let you understand a little bit about his motivations and what drives him, but also kind of.
[00:02:31] Getting you to feel too, sorry for him, because he's a 40 something millionaire. Um, some of the presentation style, I find a little bit odd, but that's probably something that I would just settle into. I dunno. What, what,
[00:02:42] Brendan: what did you say? Yeah, I listened to as well. Uh, so it of actually kind of funny, similarly, I had problems with this feed.
[00:02:50] Um, in overcast, EV all the episodes are labeled as the same date. Oh, I couldn't tell which one came out first. And so I just listened to a couple from the top. Uh, but I don't know if that necessarily new or old, there weren't any dates in it. So it was all right. Um, I mean, I see where Dan, uh, ha has this view of.
[00:03:10] Uh, like human interaction and trying to understand the fellow person and, and, and betterment and that kind of stuff, that the human interaction was fun. Uh, I, I appreciate that they're trying to solve problems. Um, I listened to one where, um, there was a, an older lady who was disabled and there was a, a younger guy, um, I think a teenager or whatever, and that his teenager, the teenager had a.
[00:03:36] Grandpa that had cancer or something and they ended up, but she was looking for love. And so they ended up Skyping him and trying to hook the two of them up. So it was kind of. Um, things I didn't really care for is the, actually what you kind of hinted at was the radio format. Uh, I like, I like podcasts, not, not really radio programs.
[00:03:56] It definitely had that radio feel of the, kind of the way that the music came in and, and what the sound bumpers were like and everything like that. Uh, the intro and outro music really irritated me. So overall it was this wasn't something that was going to stick with, but I can see the appeal for other.
[00:04:13] Aaron, did you have a chance to listen to sleep over? Yeah,
[00:04:16] Aaron: uh, I started it. I started with whatever the most recent episode is. I think it's about, um, Canadian indigenous people and, uh, uh, a center that, um, you know, helps, um, adopt. Uh, children find their cultural identity and man on paper, that sounds like, uh, you know, a golden rainbow liberal paradise of a podcast, but I, I really have to admit it really didn't grab me the idea of sounds super cool.
[00:04:48] And I know, I don't know if it was like the, how the, how the storytelling went or if the facts. And, you know, these are really complete strangers and, and, uh, everyone's, uh, you know, shy when they meet strangers or are, have some sort of affectation that like, I just really felt like. I just felt really walled off from it.
[00:05:10] I felt like, uh, I, it was, it almost filled me with like a pseudo anxiety of like, oh God, I don't want to make these everybody just, can we just like, it's fine. It's fine. Just keep, and then, and then it, wasn't fine by the end of the, oh no. At the end of the episode.
[00:05:28] Mark: Yeah. Ultimately I think I was left. Yeah. I was left wanting.
[00:05:32] And, and it wasn't really offered a great idea. And I think sometimes, and I know I've, I've had this as well with sometimes you, you pre-produced and you think this is going to be, this is going to work so well. Uh, the ideas are brilliant and I know the people are interesting and then you come to actually do the recording and it just doesn't quite happen.
[00:05:51] Um, and, and, you know, you're you're then. We've got the audio. I mean, we've invested in taking the time to do it, so we've got to put it out, but it's not exactly compelling, which is a, which is a shame. And I think that's, that's always just going to be the luck of the draw. So you're ready
[00:06:05] Brendan: for a new recommendation.
[00:06:07] Mark: ready for this man. AMA.
[00:06:08] Brendan: Awesome. Okay. So I got, I got, I'm debating between two, so I'm gonna let you pick, do you want a. Fiction podcast or, um, a, uh, uh, a lighthearted science podcast to replace. We have concerns. Uh, I'm
[00:06:23] Mark: going to make you guess with the lighthearted science podcast, be presented by an Australian.
[00:06:27] No. So it's not, it's not, it's not science versus, um, no, it is not . I think I'd like to balance out with some more fiction and, uh, I think that's something that I'd like to see more of. So let's, let's go fiction.
[00:06:40] Brendan: I just want to say giving these recommendations every week has given me a new ear while listening to podcasts because I'm kind of listening.
[00:06:47] With that in mind of, you know, is this something that I would recommend is this specifically to mark or to anybody who's listening to this show? And, uh, so I've been having a lot of fun
[00:06:57] Mark: with that WW, M L what would mark like
[00:07:01] Brendan: exactly. Um, I was recommended this podcast by my friend, Erica. Um, and it is a efficient podcast set in space and it has reminded me a lot of, um, mission to XYX, although it's scripted instead of improvised and another podcast, I can not recall right now, but it's called we fix space.
[00:07:24] Have you heard of this? No, I have nuts. Awesome. Uh, at the first season is out now. Right now. They're putting out little, um, um, little diary episodes that are just kind of shortened. But the premise is there's a woman who runs a spaceship that, uh, she is like the mechanic of space. And so she like goes around and she has a job to job kind of thing, where she goes and fixes lights and other, you know, AC and all that kind of stuff.
[00:07:52] Uh, and sometimes she delivers cargo. Oh, it's a little bit like, um, like firefighter slash serenity, that kind of, that kind of feel a little bit, um, Although it's a lot smaller cast and, uh, and sh so she gets a job to deliver a package package, happens to have a human in it, and, you know, hygienists go from there.
[00:08:11] So, uh, it was it's, it was a really fun for a season. Um, the working on second season now, And I am very curious to
[00:08:18] Mark: see what you think. I am curious to check it out. Awesome.
[00:08:23] Brendan: So, Aaron, we decided to have you on to talk about, uh, the new Google podcasts app. Since you are using Android and have been using the app a little bit, you sent me a little.
[00:08:36] Many rants about it, which was hilarious. It's real bad. I don't have an Android phone. So I, uh, I haven't been able to use it yet, but mark, uh, yours came in as well. You, you will lose it. Yeah,
[00:08:47] Mark: absolutely. I've got, uh, I I'm, I am an iPhone person, but like, just because. But you'll like this, that they're currently the best, but not on a salable.
[00:08:57] Uh, but I, I managed to pick up a phone, which I'm really, really happy with, which was, is the, um, byway mate, uh, something. And, um, it's, it's the light version, uh, of the phone and it, I mean, it's, it's really light. It's got a fingerprint sensor on the back and, you know, I can always get into the phone. I can always, obviously where my hands are dry.
[00:09:18] I can always get into the phone, which anyway, um, I, uh, no. And so I've been using a bunch of, um, of Android apps because the phone I had before was, was old and clunky. And, you know, your experience when you're trying to evaluate, uh, other apps is often so tied to the phone. So I wanted to make sure I had something that was snappy.
[00:09:36] That makes sense. So, you know, the, the, I think the Google app. The Google podcast app, it's a start. And, um, that's probably the best thing you can say about it, but I'm keen to hear what, uh, what Aaron has to say. It really bugs
[00:09:50] Aaron: me about this whole, the whole format is I don't, I guess, sort of where we are in the whole UI world.
[00:10:00] Uh, if I'm using that term correctly is like Netflix came in. And totally changed the game, right? Like the way you find content, the way content is marketed towards you, it was never easier to find something to, to just like turn on and shut off your brain. Right. Right. The problem is everyone on earth has picked up that foreign.
[00:10:24] And it doesn't work for me on a phone, on a phone. I have very limited space and I need a lot of important information to be one touch away. And holy cow, it is not. When, so when you open the app, even when you have your subscriptions, your subscriptions only take up about half of your screen before a new episodes for you.
[00:10:50] And then, and then basically the rest of this, which is what I have such a hard time. Which is a top podcasts, trending podcasts, podcasts, and certain genres. We think you'd like this, we think you'd like this. We think you'd like this. And I don't know how many more times I have to say no to Joe Rogan's podcast before everyone on earth understands that that's not something I want to do.
[00:11:13] So either we really need the algorithms to boy, just really laser in on crazy shit that only I would like, or please for the love of God. Stop, like, give me the whole page and let me swipe left or right to find, discover in my podcast or my page or something like that. Like stop bombarding me now for me a road, someone who's relatively new to podcasting, like it is.
[00:11:41] Insanely overwhelming. There is so much content and it's, it's good in a way, because like, I have no idea where to go, which means that like the marketing machine hasn't really gotten into my brain and told me what's good. And what's not, I can discover that for myself. But at the same time, I'm very, very lost because I don't.
[00:12:03] I don't know what the hits are, you know, like I don't have a greatest hits album to tell me what, to, what record to go back and get the deep cuts on, you know, because for me personally, how I find most of my podcasts is, uh, I, uh, I watch a lot of YouTube videos. That's probably my main source of content and most of my podcasts are YouTube channel companions.
[00:12:27] Oh, next nice. Okay. And so like it, for me, podcasting, it's a really good way to extend, to go out into different directions. Th the, the content I'm already. Kind of in love with and found.
[00:12:39] Mark: And the fact is Google knows that about you. Google knows that the podcasts that you're subscribed to, it's almost like it owns the system by which you subscribe to those YouTube channels.
[00:12:51] And so that data is available. And when you. Sign up to Google podcasts. If I remember it, well, I think it just all happens on your Android anyway, you're in with your Google accounts. So they've got that information just
[00:13:04] Aaron: recommended Joe Rogan because we listened to one episode for our podcasts. And, uh, it was just like, you know, remember when like TiVo first came out.
[00:13:13] I think Patton Oswald had a bit about. Great. Like you record one show about hor uh, about a Western, and then all of a sudden, like you wake up the next day and there's 400 shows about horses on your, on your TV. And you're like, no, what
[00:13:26] Mark: come on now. Now I want to get into the Netflix categories of compelling, true crime dramas, hosted by a Husky voice women with a less, you know, like I can get into that really nice.
[00:13:39] Area. That's how deep
[00:13:40] Aaron: a cut I want. If the algorithm is going to analyze all my stuff, you know,
[00:13:44] Mark: if you're going to make a deal with the data devil, then at least give us, give us, give us the goods.
[00:13:48] Brendan: So on a previous episode, we talked about how, uh, the Google podcasts coming to. Uh, Android was going to bring up to four times the amount of users and listeners, um, that iOS had already has.
[00:14:03] Like, and, and, and, and how would that affect listenership and, and all that kind of stuff. And I, I was trying to think about that four times, the users of iOS knows I was questioning a little bit considering. How many Android users could actually use the latest podcast app like mark, you had to go out and buy a new Android phone because your old one from the drawer wouldn't run it.
[00:14:26] And so I was thinking like how, and, and it's apples line all the time. If I'm in the apple ecosystem and in their bubble and everything, apples lined in the keynote is always like, oh, you're the, all the Google phones are on older versions. And the, the, you know, what's the market share of. I was curious what the market share.
[00:14:45] The latest operating system that would be able to run Google podcasts would be. And so I did the math, I went to a developer.android.com and they have in their dashboard section, they have a layout of, of how many active users are using each of the different, uh, versions. And I also went to the play store online to see what version.
[00:15:08] At the podcast app needs to run. I think it was 4.1 or 4.2, one of those two. And I, so I did the math and it turns out it's about 98% of active users are on phones that would run Google podcasts. So. That four times seems to be pretty accurate. Yeah,
[00:15:25] Mark: absolutely. Cause I'm Android 4.4, I think, uh, uh, Android kick-out I think it was 2014 when that came up.
[00:15:33] Um, and uh, yeah, I mean, I, I bought a new device knowing that it wasn't because the, the latest version of the operating system. Uh, how yet? I don't think Android P um, I know it's been announced, but I can't remember if it had, if it's been out yet. Uh, and obviously my, my phone certainly doesn't have it, but, um, I also was aware that I think the podcast app is actually more built into the operating system, uh, because it goes straight from the browser.
[00:15:56] I think my understanding of the listing in the play store is that it's basically, um, a little bit like what apple do. If you delete an app from your. If you quote, unquote, delete an app, a built-in app from your home screen. So if you went and tried to delete the mail app, you would be able to get it back from the app store, even though all it's actually doing is just saying stop hiding the app.
[00:16:19] Um, and I think that is, um, Google's play with, with podcasts. So it was, it was already in the operating system anyway, uh, from KitKat onwards, which is, yeah. I mean that, the adoption on that is, is that's. That's really good. Um, I, I th I, I really do think that the fairly seamless integration that they have from being able to search for a podcast in your browser, which is how humans find things, um, and then being able to hit a play button.
[00:16:47] Perfect like that. That's what you want. Um, you know, you want to make that a fairly seamless transition. And I think that they do that. It doesn't help power users, but power users will probably want to pay for an app. Uh, you know, that, that helps. Really curate what they're listening to, but for the, for the people who just want to get their friend or their mum or whatever, to listen to their podcast, or, you know, the podium hosts a lot of, um, church podcasts.
[00:17:15] And there's, there's lots of people who deliver sermons. And so, uh, for, for people all around the, you know, the U S uh, which maybe where, where these are, um, to be able to. Subscribe to a sermon from their local church. Great for them, because that is a really super simple way of them being able to do that without having to.
[00:17:34] Jumped through a bunch of hoops. Yeah. Well, speaking as Aaron was, uh, about Netflix, uh, and, and podcasting, um, there's an article by fast company, which is then sort of referenced by Birch tree about, uh, we, we don't need a Netflix for podcasts and, and that, it's more like this site only works in a six, uh, which is, um, absolutely the, the siloing of.
[00:17:55] Oh of content. Um, and you know, I read that straight away and that makes me think of some of the organizations that we've talked about previously, uh, that, um, that core podcasts podcasts, and then have their own proprietary apps and blades. Let's not rehash that. Um, but that's kind of, you know, what that makes me think of.
[00:18:12] And, um, I found this because of a tweet, uh, from the venerable Marco Arment, who was, uh, you know, basically decrying that no one needs a middleman. Um, and while I. I agree with the things behind his sentiment. Yes. I also think that the, an idea of a Netflix for podcasting, it's not the worst thing in the world, right.
[00:18:35] Because discovery is not just about, um, My obscure podcast, get more listeners. It's also about, can we broaden the listening habits of audiences and get them access to more interesting things? Because the amount of conversations I have where I've learned something, or had an emotional experience through a podcast that I then impart to someone who isn't a podcast listener.
[00:18:57] And I know that their lives would be enriched by listening to the podcast is, you know, that that happens a lot. And so the more that we make this. Even more accessible and don't just throw out here's everything. What do you want to hear? When my choice is everything. I have no idea where to start. Um, and so something that's much more curated.
[00:19:18] I think there is something about that. And whether that means a middleman, I don't know,
[00:19:22] Aaron: I am a bajillion percent in favor of that. Like, uh, I think for a lot of people that are very deep down the rabbit hole, like my man, Brandon, I think that podcasting is a challenge of finding that sort of hidden gem that only, you know about.
[00:19:38] And then you get to spread that gospel. Um, Having a sort of agreed upon, uh, everybody knows that this is great. Um, and not, not just popular, but like rewarding, you know, uh, which is, which would be a much better use of, of, uh, the algorithm for me. And, and to be clear when I, when I'm bagging on the Netflix model, it's more just the, it, it's more of the interface than it is.
[00:20:02] Like I do think Netflix for podcasts is a really great idea because I don't know where to go. Where do I go? That's that's really tough for me. So like some vetted, trusted podcasts would be really great. Uh, you know, I just don't know how Joe Rogan keeps topping the charts on all that stuff. Yeah. Because it really is just his scary pot leaf head face all over my app.
[00:20:27] Brendan: Yeah. So when, when you first shared this with me, I was trying to think of how we wanted bit rate to be. Um, a focus on the culture of podcasts. And I was trying to, to think of this topic in relation to that, how would that, how would that work together? And so I was trying to figure out, okay, what, first of all, what is a podcast a second?
[00:20:47] What is it to be Netflix? And then third, what is it to be the Netflix of podcasts? So a podcast is a, a distributed open. Audio program of some sort. And I think partially my, my definition of what Netflix is, or the way I think about Netflix is different than, than others probably do. I'm guessing. Uh, I kind of think of them as a distributed production studio of amazing video content.
[00:21:18] Uh, Um, when I'm watching Netflix, I'm pretty much only watching their original shows anymore. Um, they just make great content happen either themselves or they hire others to make great content. And in that sense, there is completely room for a Netflix of podcasts. Some company making amazing audio content.
[00:21:40] Uh, but I realized that Netflix is, is a walled garden. And I know that some companies are trying to do that kind of Netflix approach, like Stitcher, audible, where they have original content, it's behind a paywall. And, um, from what I understand, from what I see in the community of podcasting, those. Shows are much less, um, listened to, and it's, it's profitable enough for those companies to do what they want to do.
[00:22:11] But for the most part, they don't, they don't have the viral aspect to them. They don't have as much of a real. They're harder to get to. They're harder to find. And I, I haven't subscribed to, I mean, actually I'm, I am subscribed to audible, um, at different times. I don't know if I currently have it right now.
[00:22:29] I've never been subscribed to Stitcher. I have a coupon code for like a free trial for Stitcher for like a couple months or something. And there are. Podcasts on stitches that I would like to listen to, but I haven't signed up because I just don't want to have to go into that specific app. Cause it's horrible and use that.
[00:22:48] And I want to be able to listen my way. I want to be able to use overcast or banter or however I'm listening to it in the moment. And in that respect, I completely agree with Marco. Um, th the way that. And also with a lot of the users that he was, uh, curating, uh, retweets from is that, um, the, the system that we have now is of user choice.
[00:23:15] It's, it's, um, democratic in that anybody with a microphone and a computer, or even just a cell phone can record something and put it out and. There's not necessarily a huge problem that a Netflix for podcasts would solve outside of what you were saying. Erin, with discovery in the apple world, discovery is usually less of a problem for the initial jump in because the apple top charts are where most people go to find their initial batch of podcasts.
[00:23:51] And then they start doing more deep dives into searching and stuff. It sounds like. Google podcasts doesn't have that set up very well yet, apparently. And, um, it'll be interesting to see if. They do something like that, that makes it, um, a little bit easier to jump in for, for somebody like for somebody like you.
[00:24:09] But Erin would, if, if there was a Netflix for podcasts, if it was a, a walled garden where you'd have to pay $5 a month, $10 a month to find a curated list of audio programs, that you can pretty much be assured that any of them are good, as long as it's a topic that you like, would that be something that you would pay.
[00:24:30] Aaron: This sounds to me more like a blue apron of podcasts than really a, like a, you know, tailor made tailor made podcast. Just for me.
[00:24:43] Uh, I'll be honest, man. To me, part of the reason I think podcasting is appealing is because it is a very, for the people, grassroots boots on the floor type of podcast. I, I very rarely listen to a podcast that is so insanely produced and polished, and I'm like, wow, that was part of a corporate media machine.
[00:25:07] And I, I don't, it's very counterintuitive to me to, to, to pay for a podcast because like, it's just an idea, man. It's not even a full, I'm. Not even, I don't even look at anything. It's just a voice in my head as I, you know, drive to work. Like I don't, I don't know that. I don't know that anyone has a powerful enough message for me to support it with money.
[00:25:32] Uh, not that that's a bad thing and not that those ideas don't exist, but like just my gut visceral reaction is like, no, I'm not gonna fucking pay for a podcast. You kidding me? They're free. They're everywhere. However, if, if the media being produced with strong, Yeah, it could probably change my mind on that
[00:25:51] Mark: for me, that it's the it's that curation and, uh, you know, something that, that Spotify is doing incredibly well, as much as we've, you know, we sort of had, uh, had our disagreements or whatever.
[00:26:03] One of the things that Spotify does very well, uh, and they advertise on is their discover weekly thing. And that's purely algorithmic, right? Far from perfect, but sometimes you will find some absolute gems in there that you would not have found anywhere else. And it's those experiences. I know that there's a podcast that somewhere out there, there is the one, there is a podcast that I already absolutely love.
[00:26:26] I just haven't found it yet. Just like, just like Michael bublé said, I just haven't met you yet. Oh my God.
[00:26:32] Aaron: Sorry. I love that, Paul.
[00:26:34] Mark: Thank you. Um, uh, a system that, um, I guess what an app like, is it good, is trying to do, but that's just, I don't like the brand, uh, but something that, that mixes a bit of human knowledge, a bit of curation and a bit of serendipity and putting packages those together in a cross platform app, um, that is really nice to use feels good.
[00:26:59] Um, and lets me, you know, inter interact maybe with the podcast is like, this is all stuff. Completely
[00:27:07] Brendan: doable. All I want is more people making great audio to choose from and an easy way to find it. Try it, subscribe to it, read it, share it and dismiss it. If I don't. That's
[00:27:15] Mark: all boom Brendan's bullet list.
[00:27:17] Aaron: I mean, that was probably my biggest complaint on, um, on the Google podcast app was like, it just doesn't feel easy.
[00:27:25] It doesn't feel easy to get to the content that I want. Like I don't want to have to, to, to search. I want it. I just want to push one. Just start, just go, just get to the thing. Can we start please?
[00:27:41] Mark: Uh, so, uh, I've got, uh, I've got a busy weekend coming up. Um, but uh, more importantly, uh, I want to know first off, um, Aaron, what are you up to?
[00:27:51] Where can people find you, should you wish as Paul F Tompkins says to be found,
[00:27:56] Aaron: uh, I have a defunct Twitter at normal. I promise I've I haven't logged on it. Years. Otherwise just listen to Brendan stuff, man. He's the one, he's the one in the game. Like he's the one doing this stuff. If you want to check out my band, my band is downtown, uh, at downtown as a band.com and um, oh, I'm also on a comedy podcast called the holler podcast.
[00:28:17] We're a little defunct right now. Cause we all got super busy, but I think we're going to start up against. Called holler presents. I will. God, I think that's right.
[00:28:26] Brendan: We'll have a link in the show or there is a link in the show notes. Mark, what is going on with you this weekend? What
[00:28:32] Mark: is going on? Indeed. I am putting on a two day podcasting festival in my home city of Birmingham,
[00:28:37] Aaron: the town from Peaky blinders.
[00:28:39] Mark: That's right. So yes we are. We've got nine, uh, awesome podcasts that are coming together, um, over sort of two evenings of shows and. It's going to be really fun and I've just taken delivery. I've of hopefully everything I need to actually make it happen. So, uh, I'm going to be looking all of that stuff over to a cinema on Saturday, and we're going to watch the England semi final for football, the next bit of the football.
[00:29:11] Uh, and then, uh, and then we're going to make podcasts and I'm like sweet, sweet podcasts. So. That's awesome. If, if you're interested in hearing what Birmingham sounds like, uh, then, uh, brown pod fest.com and, uh, that stuff will be, it will be podcast, hopefully by the time you listen to our next episode
[00:29:28] Brendan: mess.
[00:29:34] Hey listeners in more upcoming news about bitrate itself. After the next episode, we're going to take another break. This might be for a bit longer than the last one. We'll still be around. I am at the pond playlist. Mark is at, I am Steadman and both of us are at bitrate pod. We will talk to you next week with a special guest and then enjoy a summer break together in the immortal words of Mike Bearcat from nor effects the people's reveling.
[00:30:01] It's going to be a podcast.