Is it time to redefine the term "podcast"?

[00:00:00] Brendan: DV is a nickname and nicknames are friends and television is no friend of mine

[00:00:10] either. No,

[00:00:12] Mark: no, I'm sorry.

[00:00:14] Brendan: Oh

[00:00:26] Brendan: I'm Brendan Hutchins with podcast advocate. And with me is as always as mark. Hello and guesting with us today is my Ma'ayan Plaut with radio public. You want the podcast librarian and content strategist?

[00:00:40] Ma'ayan: Yes, I am. Indeed. I wear at least two, if not more hats on any given day

[00:00:46] Brendan: and you're with us today to talk about podcasts.

[00:00:48] Um, and especially specifically the word podcast. Um, there's been some talk online a little bit and mostly with you about whether that should be, that should be the word of the content.

[00:01:02] Ma'ayan: Uh, I'll give some background on why I even brought this up now in particular. The pod chaser, um, IMDV for podcasts, et cetera, asked a bunch of people who work in the industry to sort of like shift their lens from this moment now.

[00:01:19] Um, and look a little bit backwards to sort of where we got started with all of this podcast in this, and then shift our lens forwards to think about what we would see in this industry in the next 10 years. Um, My background is in marketing and communications. My undergraduate degree was in media and film studies.

[00:01:38] So I've always looked at how things are made and what they turn into with like a somewhat historical lens, but also a critical lens. Um, so when asked, what does the future of podcasts look like? I gave a like, relatively broad answer about like what shape it might take, but then yeah. Close it with, I also think we'll see either a GUI bank brand or an overhaul of the word podcast, which I think was the quote fighting words.

[00:02:05] But, um, you Brendan and mark really latched on to, um, cool. Uh, the reason why I put it in is that I really do think it is, um, important to examine the words that we use in terms of who. Who it talks to what it means for the future of that. And then like what it means beyond like our own understanding being inside of the world.

[00:02:29] That is podcasts. Um, so yeah, so like the background is like, I think, I don't know that there is a better word, but I just want us to keep on thinking about what that word means, where it came from, what it means now and what it can mean in the future. And I think this is sort of like, I like did a little bit of like, Thought processing on my own and with my coworkers and actually with the lovely people I'm staying with this week, um, to talk about what this word means to them and then why it is.

[00:02:58] Why it's not necessarily future-proof at it as is. So for me, I think of this sort of as, as the we major things. So, um, one is that in the next 10 years I see a serious. Between podcasts related to the original device where it started, like we're already seeing that now the iPod doesn't exist in its form anymore.

[00:03:25] Like they're not being made, it's shifted entirely to iPhone. Um, so that's historically the device that it was named for no longer exists. Um, and then moving forward, um, thinking about smart speakers, the fact that people listen online, listen in their cars, listen on their. I hate using the word refrigerator, but we're using that as representative of internet of things like podcasts, listening and cylinders.

[00:03:49] Yes. Yeah. So basically like podcasts are going to be listening to you on things that are no longer the

[00:03:54] Brendan: pod, since you brought that up. I want to kind of not necessarily rebut that little bit, but to me. Pod part of podcast has never meant anything to do with apple. And it's speaking as somebody who is an apple evangelist, like I'm looking around and everything in my eyesight is an apple branded something.

[00:04:16] Um, the, the pod in podcast has always, ever just meant a small unit or a. With the added qualifier that is smaller. That

[00:04:27] Mark: is portable. I came to apple, um, about nine years ago and, and sort of slowly moved myself into the apple ecosystem, um, because I got to a stage where I could afford it. Um, so I, I was very much listening to podcasts, but in, in the camp of, uh, the devices, like the creative jukebox and the correct.

[00:04:47] Um, and they used to have a website called Zen casts and, um, it was on cast and they talked about podcasts there and they try to retrofit the name to me. Personal on demand, um, which is clearly Buncombe. I, I think, I think that kind of adds to that point. Like I don't disagree with either of you. Um, I think it is tied to that is the original name, but I don't think it is limited by that.

[00:05:20] Right. And

[00:05:21] Brendan: also a podcast. The term podcast was too. Coined before they could even be played on an

[00:05:29] Ma'ayan: iPod. So all of these things while true are still tied up with what someone might associate. When they're trying to December you gate the word podcast, they're going to try and find words that they are familiar with already.

[00:05:43] Um, so like we're in this, like we are deep in podcast world. Um, we are not everybody. And part of my, like, let us continue to reexamined. If these words have no meaning, if we are bringing the meaning to it, does the meaning still hold true. And, and, or as podcast, just a subset of something larger that can be more descriptive and more helpful to getting people in.

[00:06:08] Again, like I think about the like device disconnection, both in terms of like, it's not just apple devices, it's also Android devices. It's not just, um, people in the United States or English speakers. It's people around the world. If we're defining a new word for many, many people, um, we don't have a solid enough definition of podcast.

[00:06:30] That's translatable across enough things because it's such a new word compared to other forms of media that exists. So, mark, this actually might be a good thing for you to talk about what, like infinite dial does a lot, but I don't know that it covers like all. Countries outside of the United States, they cover Canada and Australia.

[00:06:50] And I don't know if being, if they haven't yet.

[00:06:52] Mark: No, I don't think so. Uh, our, our market is very small. And, um, if you listen to the likes of Helen, Zaltzman, who I have no reason to disagree with part of being on a small island means there's a fairly limited number of. Options for radio, but we are very lucky in that our state funded, um, broadcaster puts out consistently good content and lots of different types of content for different audiences.

[00:07:21] And that can be listened to commercial. And so, because we are well-served by that programming in a lot of ways. I think that may be one of the reasons people haven't taken up the medium that much. It's still, I think, in the UK, really very, very niche.

[00:07:40] Ma'ayan: Curious, given our very recent appointment of a podcast commissioner, how much of what they're going to be doing is trying to either connect or disconnect.

[00:07:51] I guess it's either extend the BBC brand and two podcasts or extend the BBC radio brand into podcasts are a way in which you can listen to BBC radio. So that to me is actually a really interesting example of like where we could use a different kind of umbrella term. Radio has been allowed for a long time.

[00:08:12] And radio has moved into not just from the device of a radio. It's also now delivered on a computer and a car, like it's moved out of the device itself. And I know it's named after the radio wave. So it's like, it's, it's much it's, it's based on something a lot larger. If we think about podcasts as a subset of that.

[00:08:35] A podcast is a way in which one could listen to BBC radio. And I'm actually curious to see in the next year to three in particular, cause I'm seeing anytime someone comes into a new position that's being described for the first time or created for the first time, there's a learning curve. And then within that first year and a half to two years, just like, boom, they're out the door and they've, they've made gigantic change as soon as they've learned the whole of what it is within the new organization.

[00:09:01] So I'm curious where things are going. Kind of settle out in terms of how a place as large as an pervasive as the BBC, we'll figure out how to better explain podcasts to new listeners. And if they're going to use the word podcast as the, you should always listen to a BBC podcast. BBC creates lots of great content.

[00:09:21] One of the ways you can get it is through podcasts and podcasts is this, this, this, this, this, and actually using more explanatory action-driven words to get people into that funnel because it doesn't matter to the BBC of people who are listening on the radio. In podcast form and the BBC app, like I'm sure it does, but to them, it's like we have made this wonderful thing.

[00:09:43] How are people consuming it?

[00:09:44] Mark: Absolutely. And, um, for, uh, about a year, maybe slightly longer the BBC, I don't know if you would call it experimented, but they. They went through this phase where I don't think they wanted to associate themselves with the word podcast. And part of this I think is because the BBC is very, very squeamish about having any kind of association with a commercial entity, um, because of the way that they're funded, um, you know, things like product placements.

[00:10:13] A complete no-no and, and, um, you know, there is no advertising, but also it, that, that gets taken to an extreme sometimes where they are very reluctant, often to link out to other websites, uh, less they be, um, perceived as promoting, you know, something else. Uh, and I think. Part of that thinking for a while is, you know, they, they, they used the term free download.

[00:10:38] So, uh, for, for, for quite a while, um, you would have free downloads, which were the name for podcasts, uh, because they didn't want to have that association. I've spoken

[00:10:48] Ma'ayan: with enough podcasts just from the UK who are in the United States, who are like really deeply examining the differences and why there's been a boom here versus a boom there.

[00:10:59] Um, and like, I, I'm not even going to pretend that I know how this works in countries that don't have English as a dominant language, because I don't speak enough languages to know what's happening there from my very small sample sizes. I think there's like, A, an attachment to radio in a way that isn't necessarily attached here in the United States or in the UK.

[00:11:22] Um, that radio is either completely owned by the government. So it has never trusted, or it is completely like quality control is everywhere. So like who knows what happens with it? Um, so if the radio is the corollary to like, that's, let's talk about a podcast as being a on demand radio show on your phone.

[00:11:40] It's not that the device isn't there. It's that the understanding. Like the cultural understanding around what this thing could do for you is not the same. And then like access to tools that are being made in the United States are not necessarily accessible to people outside of the U S so the boom that we're seeing an English speaking countries is not necessarily the boom that we see anywhere else.

[00:12:00] I'm not seeing it in part because I'm not privy to it. Because radio public is an internationally available podcast app. We are seeing gradually more and more shows coming in and languages that we, that no one on the team speaks.

[00:12:19] let me just like put this out there. I had a very hard time thinking about words for the word podcasts, knowing that it is used in so many forms. Now it is. It is a ver it's like a noun that is like a podcast is a thing. Um, podcasting is a thing. A podcaster is a thing, and I was having a very hard time to come up with words that would encapsulate all of those that it could turn into.

[00:12:42] Like the, like now that is the application of the person who does the thing, as well as the act of doing the thing as well as the thing itself. And that's cool. And a reason why I think that the word's not going away anytime soon, but it is. Very interesting to me that it has sort of taken that shape, that the word itself, as weird as it is, has turned into different like forms of, of speech.

[00:13:08] Um, so in coming up with fun and, or useful ones, very few of them cover all of the bases.

[00:13:15] Brendan: I've also compiled a sort of list from, from people that I pulled around me, some friends and stuff, and mine, I don't think are, um, to discussion worthy. So how about I list off mine first and then we'll get into yours.

[00:13:35] Um, Kevin Goldberg of discover pod said, no, I think the ship has sailed on an industry rebrand, and he also mentioned things like a slow adoption trends in the Edison research making. A big step back since we've finally gotten up to this point, it's taken so long Bradley of pod chaser said I would never call it anything else.

[00:13:54] And people still call smart phones, phones, and probably will forever fellow podcaster. UV suggested that stream resigns jokingly, which I thought was. Um, but uh, also asked what was wrong with ponder podcast. A friend of mine, Erica said that her partner calls them tapes as a nickname, which I thought was just adorable.

[00:14:16] And, um, just cause like people used to pass the tapes back and forth of little things that they would record. And so he was, he likened it to that. And then, um, my, uh, my partner, Sarah suggested, um, that how moving pictures became movies, we could rebrand it to something like audio casts, and then that could be shortened to artists, which I thought was an adorable name.

[00:14:40] And then suggested that, uh, podcasters would become audio Smith. To which I immediately say that is my new title. And I changed it on Twitter.

[00:14:49] Ma'ayan: It gets all the points actually in my book because it's the one that we really like, like all the rest of them. Cool. Like, please take one's own stand. But I think she's the one that's starting to think about where the connections outside of the podcast radio medium are like, what is it that draws us to this and extrapolating out to other forms of media and how they have changed in the last 150 years.

[00:15:15] Mark: Hit us hit us with the big hitters. Then

[00:15:20] Ma'ayan: I think we should double down on keeping the word podcast, but we need episode to PS. How do

[00:15:27] Brendan: you spell PS?

[00:15:28] Mark: E a S I was in peace. Peace. Peace. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[00:15:34] Ma'ayan: That's great. Ear nugs.

[00:15:37] Mark: Oh boy. I feel like that's a, that's a condition I've got at the moment. Cause I couldn't, I can't hear properly out of my left ear.

[00:15:43] So I feel like that may have been.

[00:15:44] Ma'ayan: Your gummies

[00:15:52] Brendan: at first, I liked it until, until mark me,

[00:15:56] Ma'ayan: me that sound. And I was like,

[00:15:57] Mark: oh, I guess that's a bad thing. I don't want any connection with gum and Ear.

[00:16:03] Ma'ayan: How about your friends? Oh

[00:16:05] Brendan: yeah, I think mark even said that

[00:16:06] Ma'ayan: last episode. I don't know how I'm going to be able to explain this one because it looks better and like writing written down.

[00:16:12] Then Alex said out loud, which is probably a problem for something that has audio based. R and R which is a reliable resonance. This one's a full sentence. A bear with me, everything, audio really for you, lots and lots. Also known as an earful. Um, and then we start getting into more serious ones like radio shows, audio stories, spoken word one that we use a lot at radio public internally episodes.

[00:16:44] Um, which I really like, um, as well as Sana cast and Sona cast kind of playing with the way that Sonus does things, someone proposed repurposing the word talkies since that's gone away. Um, and then we just propose what if we use emojis, which is the radio emoji plus. Um, which I will say I have some like positive feelings toward that because emoji has transcended language like internationally, which is helpful, but it makes, it makes it very hard for us to have like a single word that one could use while still.

[00:17:21] But it does leave it open enough to interpretation that other languages can find their own word for that thing. I had one more. That is like the most obvious one, which is on demand radio or on demand audio. I think that's the umbrella term for what all of this is that once you start to explain what is a podcast.

[00:17:36] Like verbs and actions to make sure that somebody understands how they would get that

[00:17:40] Mark: thing. Yes. That's, that's kind of where, yeah, so yeah,

[00:17:43] Brendan: you've used radio and a few of them, obviously it's in the name of the company that you work for. Um, but to me, like I have just short of a violent reaction to the use of that word for podcasts, because to me.

[00:17:57] Whenever I've ever listened to the radio, it has been a completely different experience to anything I've ever listened to as a podcast. And like when I ever hear a podcast that is just a rebroadcast of a radio show, uh, and you know, something I just immediately unsubscribed from and, and never come back to because.

[00:18:15] The, I feel like it's, it's, it's crossing over a line that, that shouldn't be a radio program is something completely different than what you would get on, on demand because it's built

[00:18:27] Ma'ayan: for a different structure. So is that structural? Is that content, is that tone? Is that all of that? Yeah.

[00:18:33] Brendan: To me. I mean, it's something that you it's, it's a stream it's always there in a stream.

[00:18:38] So it's a live broadcast as opposed to something on demand. And not that a podcast can't be live and then also distributed on demand. But a radio is only that the only

[00:18:48] Ma'ayan: challenge that I find with the word radio. Totally valid. And I feel some of that as well, knowing also that, like I live in a college town that has a free form radio station and it doesn't sound like any way to I've heard anywhere else.

[00:19:00] Okay. Big difference between radio to me and podcasts is like FCC. A podcast can be anything now because it can be made by anyone to be anything. And that is sort of the only differentiator for me between radio and podcast is who is overseeing the giant thing. And there's still no like giant overseer of the thing with podcasts, which is a beautiful

[00:19:23] Brendan: thing.

[00:19:23] Yeah, exactly. It was. Yeah, man, that, that both made my heart swell and also like shrink and terror at the future thought of an FCC coming down.

[00:19:39] Ma'ayan: like, I have like weird feelings around the word podcast to be perfectly honest, um, in part, because my immediate connotation of it. Pardon me, usually two white dudes sitting around a microphone. I'm not awake. I'm sitting at a microphone, so it doesn't feel like it's a place that I can exist. So like part of my, let us examine this word as if and how we get away from some of the negative connotations around the start of all of it.

[00:20:05] Um, that makes it more inclusive for people around the world, people of color, women, et cetera.

[00:20:10] Brendan: I bet that that, uh, that makes me so sad that you feel like it's something that's only for two white dudes. And like, for me, like I, um,

[00:20:19] Ma'ayan: my, my like picture has totally changed from being inside of this, but it's part of the reason why it didn't necessarily make sense to me at the time that I, that podcasts started.

[00:20:27] Like I came to the so much. And most of the people that I knew were fitting that same demographic of listener. And like, I mean, I get that same feeling. Actually, when I look at like the apple charts, like it doesn't actually reflect what I listened to at all, but apple charts reflect what's happening on apple devices, which they have their own leg demographic of who they're trying to hit.

[00:20:45] Like it makes sense, but it also is kind of frustrating. Not that demographic.

[00:20:52] Mark: I have two questions if I may. Um, one is I think, quite short and then the other one might be a little bit longer and it's, it's one, that's been burning a hole in my brain for the last week. Um, and I've been dying to have this conversation, but I'll start with an easy one first, possibly easy.

[00:21:09] Why don't videos of this problem. So you upload to YouTube or Vimeo or one of these other places and you just call it a video. I think that's the problem. Partly, maybe that is the issue that we don't, you don't have an audience. We haven't, um, we haven't verb bite notes, not a verb. We haven't, we haven't made it a noun.

[00:21:31] We haven't, you know, made audio. You don't have an audio. I actually

[00:21:35] Ma'ayan: wasn't thinking about the unit and I like that you asked this in part, because like I was trying to think about like parallels with like, how does, um, like in the shift from like movies and television being like, again, tied to. Device or process how it's shifted into digital native and things like Netflix originals or Hulu

[00:21:54] Mark: originals.

[00:21:55] Yeah. We've got this for lots of things now, Netflix and the like. TV there they are programs of a video nature that are sometimes serialized and sometimes one off. Um, but TV is just the easiest way of, you know, terming, terming what it is, but it's not TV in the same way that, um, if I turn on my local community radio station, that's not a radio station.

[00:22:22] You know, in the traditional form, because it's completely online, doesn't have an FM signal it's only online. Um, and so, yeah, like it is, it it's a problem across digital media as we take these more analog, uh, forms and bring them into the digital age,

[00:22:40] Ma'ayan: I guess I'm thinking like the way in which digital born first digital content.

[00:22:45] Building itself is off of the analog, which is what you were saying, mark. Um, but the way in which you've chosen to brand it as like the name of the brand original. Which the only place I'm saying that in podcast land is audible. Um, potentially also with Stitcher, like, and looking at the nomenclature of what other born first digital companies are doing to help try and redefine what we understand from the analog, the shift from analog to digital.

[00:23:15] I haven't seen really good parallels

[00:23:18] Mark: yet. How does your feeling around the word? Um, How does that pertain to the format and the openness or not of that format? So for me, a podcast specifically me. Audio or video that is delivered in some kind of syndicated form using a, an open protocol. And the only open protocol that we really use is RSS.

[00:23:42] Jason feed is the thing that exists, but no ones to my knowledge, really using it yet, which is a shame. Um, so we'll just say, you know, for simplicity sake, it's RSS. Um, I don't count and I get prickly when people talk like Spotify talks to. Podcasts and Stitcher premium talks about podcasts, because I think it's not that those pieces of content don't have value, but I think they are, they're separate.

[00:24:07] And, but it's, I'm interested to know, is that an important stance? And is that a stance that you share and, and what are your thoughts around that? Because. Yeah, there is some really interesting things happening in things like premium audio. And I think there are ways to do that openly, uh, you know, using open protocols that aren't exclusive and can then actually still be part of what we, whatever we're going to call podcast.

[00:24:33] I actually

[00:24:33] Ma'ayan: very much agree with you, mark. And I think it's because of where we're both coming from. You're providing this. Protocol. And we are the people who are able to eat, set open protocol. I think all of this other stuff is great, but it's not a podcast because of the definition of how this thing is, is, is like delivered from the maker to the creator or sorry, the creator to the consumer.

[00:24:55] Um, so knowing that arc, like there is something around technology here that is still an important differentiation between this and all other on-demand audio content. And I'm, I'm glad that you brought up video only because it is not something that's super in my head when it comes to podcasts, but is in fact a whole pile of podcasts.

[00:25:14] And it is also a good reminder for me, at least that podcasts are not always words. They can also be music. So podcasts again is about not judging. The thing that we're hearing, but the delivery system, the person making it, the act of doing it, it's it covers a lot.

[00:25:30] Brendan: Yeah. That is really interesting about the, just the single word means so many different things.

[00:25:34] Uh, so many different nouns within the same. Like small

[00:25:39] Mark: sphere. What it then means is when you say stitch a premium, uh, have a new podcast, you've then got to then have the conversation when you talk to someone else and say, okay, well, can I use this app? No, you can't. What can I use this app? Can I use any podcast app?

[00:25:53] And you have to say, no, you can't, but they called it a podcast. Well, They called it a podcast. And then, you know, it makes them the bad guys, which they're not trying to be. They're trying to use a word that is, you know, to play devil's advocate. They're trying to use a word that people already understand that not

[00:26:08] Ma'ayan: everyone understands it.

[00:26:09] So it's even more confusing. Yeah.

[00:26:11] Mark: Yes. That's very true. Uh, and we, we continue to muddy the understanding by saying this thing as. But it's yeah, it, yeah, it, it, it asks me and I want to not be axed. I don't wish to be irked. And

[00:26:25] Ma'ayan: I, I will say there's a part of every time I see a new original thing that is windowed, that is specifically, specifically speaking to an audience that is not necessarily into podcasts space yet.

[00:26:38] I'm going to use Wolverine, Wolverine, just as an example, because I think one of the smart moves that they're making is we're trying to tap into. Um, comic book, enjoying world that we know exists because Marvel movies are successful. And if they're that, like in, I'm assuming as a very intentional audience crossover, they're not doing themselves a service to call it a podcast.

[00:27:02] At least not at this moment, because right now it is only available in this particular format on this one particular app. So I agree. I think it is muddying the waters slightly. And if from a mark, a strategic marketing perspective or. Making the world of podcasts move forward. I don't know that a window to exclusive that isn't actually available to everybody is.

[00:27:26] Doing a service to the word or the industry of podcasts. Yeah.

[00:27:30] Mark: There's um, Nick quire has got an interview with the, uh, I think it's the CEO, uh, of Stitcher premium and, you know, mentioned in, in, in his article Apple's potential growing animosity towards companies like. Um, Stitcher for, for doing this windowing of, of content

[00:27:49] Brendan: only stands for them to take when they're actively trying to get, um, music exclusives for apple music and

[00:27:55] Ma'ayan: everything like that.

[00:27:56] But the music industry also has all of this other structural stuff in it. The podcast industry doesn't yet have, like, we don't have the like massive studio, like crazy copy, wait. Like all of the stuff that the music industry has podcasts doesn't have. I don't want to even say yet, podcasts don't have this because it started from an open.

[00:28:19] Everybody can do this sort of place. And it's not that music didn't start from there too, but like huge, huge systems like are in place to make the music industry continue to be the music industry. So I'm wondering if one of the potential word propositions are around open and on demand. Audio. Um, that it feels like that's, I hate to say this, Brendan, but it's getting pretty close to the sound of the word, ADI.

[00:28:46] If we say it differently, which is open on demand, audio off.

[00:28:54] Mark: Buddha, which, which sounds a little bit like a Cockney saying order order.

[00:28:59] Ma'ayan: Oh, it sounds like a baby's first word, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[00:29:11] back in February, um, radio public launched the paid listens program. What it means is that any podcasts or who has ad-free episodes available in their feed can be paid essentially the equivalent of a $20 CPM. So $20 per thousand listens of episodes of their podcast in the radio public app. Um, what this says, what this means and what it like broadly indicates for the rest of podcast Lindia is that, um, Not all podcasters are ever going to reach the, um, the lowest threshold for.

[00:29:50] Advertisers, which means that while podcasts are free to listen to, they're definitely not free for the people who make them equipment cost, money, hosting, cost, money, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and many podcasters are ending up in, um, in the negative simply from making a thing that they love. Um, so, um, what paid listens does.

[00:30:11] Um, allow any, listen that's happening to actually earn money for a podcaster. Um, right now, the way that that's working is, uh, we do 15 second, um, at the moment it's just pre-rolls but, um, it could also be postholes the same way that like Spotify free does like the 32nd ad spots. You can't skip them.

[00:30:30] They're just there. Um, and that's, that's how a podcast or whatever. Um, so this sort of second piece that's developed since we launched that, um, it's called the loyal listener bonus, which means that for any new listener, that here is three or more of your episodes, you get a bonus dollar, which is awesome because it means that you now know how many people are committed to your show over time.

[00:30:56] Um, and you get paid for that, which is pretty nice. And. Broadly, when we look at what paid listens and like the earnings that come in from episodes being heard and the loyal listener bonus means is shifting away from the fuzzy numbers of. Um, subscriptions and downloads, which are their own thing. Um, and actually starting to get people hard, meaningful numbers around what their podcasts, how their podcast is performing with the most important group, which is their listeners.

[00:31:23] People seem really into what we're doing. Um, and I will say from a, like a content strategist perspective, what it's allowed us to do is find a group of people who are super hungry to make their shows better and learn more about who is listening and how. Um, and if they're even being listened to, um, that hungry group is now getting really direct support on how they can best continue to grow their show over time.

[00:31:47] We'll

[00:31:47] Brendan: have links in the show notes for all those things that you just talked about. Um, people will be able to go and check that out, especially if you're a podcaster

[00:31:55] Ma'ayan: and I'm more than happy to talk to people about, um, any of the marketing pieces, this sort of like once you were sort of in our, um, in our program, you receive a lot of like basic marketing support, but we're also offering like, one-on-one consultations.

[00:32:10] If someone's like, I want to do better. How do I do that? Well, Do a quick audit of like your RSS feed and your website and your social presences, and be like, here's some ways in which you can make this even more awesome and even more money-making potential for yourself.

[00:32:22] Brendan: I also want to give a quick shout out to your newsletter cute up, which is just an awesome, like bulk dump of all the newest

[00:32:31] Mark: podcast.

[00:32:32] Ma'ayan: Well, I will say it's, it's great for people who write about podcasts or critique critics and podcasts, but the week of. So great. And I'm going to save us specifically to your podcast. Making audience is to make sure that we know about shows before they come out, um, which we tweet about weekly, um, and also just like it should be on our site.

[00:32:52] Um, that is the best way to make sure that your show is getting in front of people who have some sort of capability of writing about your show. Podcaster is tell me about. Podcast writers. I will tell you about all the things that podcasts are telling me.