[00:00:00] Mark: Uh, I've used the worst app, I think I've ever used. Um, oh, wow. Yeah. That's low grades. No. Uh, and it's, uh, for audio books.com. Whenever I pause my podcasts, um, the audio book app just takes over and it's like, I'm playing audio now. Hate that. No, no, you're not. I forced quit the app and it's still like, Oh, I don't know.
[00:00:28] And it's infuriating just use audible, honestly. It's not an ad fraud. We'll just use audible.
[00:00:46] Um, what don't you introduce yourself? Yeah,
[00:00:48] Brendan: I'm Brendan Hutchins. I am the creator of podcast advocate now. I host a few other podcasts and I talk a lot about podcasts. I've listened to them all day long. And so I have a lot of. And I share those with people, whether they want to hear it or not. Yes.
[00:01:04] Mark: Uh, I can get behind that as someone that also lots of opinions.
[00:01:08] Um, I, Mark Steadman, developer of podiums, the, um, the, the snarling, um, three headed guardian at the gates of podcasting that nobody asked for the defender of the medium that nobody wanted. Um, I also was aware of the leopard and thread. I wanted it. Oh, thank you. Thanks, man. That makes me feel better. We were doing a show called platform and then, uh, That's sort of mainly about podium stuff, but then there's so much more cool podcasting stuff that we want to talk about then.
[00:01:39] Um, absolutely. Hence, hence, hence this thing. Um, tell me what about infinite dial? Yeah.
[00:01:45] Brendan: Infinite dial is, uh, a yearly. Uh, survey put on by, oh, what's the name of the place?
[00:01:53] Mark: Edison research. I was going to say it to somebody. I thought that was a guest. The, uh, they,
[00:01:58] Brendan: they survey 2000 people from, um, January to February of each year through, uh, through mobile, mobile and landline calls.
[00:02:08] And, you know, I've got, I've got thoughts about that, but, um, they, uh, they asked people about, they started, uh, I think it was 20 years. Um, is what they just announced. And since, you know, radio was moving to the internet, they're like, well, I guess there's like an infinite dial. Now you can kind of like search all over for, for different.
[00:02:31] Yeah. And so, uh, I thought that was, I thought that was pretty cool. I listened to the, um, they do a Facebook live video now where they go through all the slides and I was listening to that. Some pretty cool information. I just skip forward to the, to the podcast stuff because the rest of it, I, I, I don't listen to terrestrial radio.
[00:02:52] I don't listen on a smart device. I do listen to audio books as we just mentioned, but, uh, it's, it's really like, I have to be really through all of my podcasts to be able to get to thinking that I shouldn't listen to an audio book. Um, but, uh, but yeah, infant. Um, they, they, what's what I really like about infinite tile in their research is that they've been doing consistently for 20 years and you can now see long-term trends and it's just, it's just really.
[00:03:27] It's really great. We have some links in the show notes for the 2018 infant dial, um, research and answers, and you can see a whole bunch of cool trends. See, one of the questions that was on end to dial was your familiarity familiarity with podcasts, the term podcasts and that 64% of the people. Surveyed.
[00:03:54] And some people were asking if that means that we don't need to talk about what a podcast is anymore. Ooh, I don't know. I don't know that that's necessarily the case. 64. I mean that's more than half that's good. Yes. Back in 2016, it was just past halfway. I
[00:04:09] Mark: think I have two thoughts. I've there's them, there's the strand that goes, it doesn't matter in terms of what I'm about to say.
[00:04:17] Um, and there's the strand that, that wants to keep podcasts to me in a specific thing. And that's, that's, uh, it's going to be a losing battle because we, a few years ago we lost the battle over blog. And people say, you know, I posted a new blog and that's not the case you posted to your blog. Your blog is not a single entry.
[00:04:37] Your book is this, but we lost that. I love you so much, but we lost that battle. Um, and, um, as much as I am the service guarding, the gates of podcasting that nobody wanted there is. Dairy's come out. I don't want to say confusion because most people will say, well, I'm not confused about what a podcast is.
[00:04:59] A podcast is a piece of audio, um, that is found on the internet. And my definition is, is, is less broad than that, but it's that, there's a degree to which that doesn't matter to the, to the average consumer. Um, and so I'm going to try and be a little less marketing. And, um, just say, you know, if there's an understanding of, uh, it's a piece of audio that's delivered that you find somehow on the internet, uh, whether it be through Stitcher premium or it be through, um, anchor or, um, you know, SoundCloud or any of these others that I wouldn't consider necessarily.
[00:05:42] Traditional podcasts, right. To this audience that does not matter. Right. Um, and it, you know, it only matters to, to people to whom it matters. Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:52] Brendan: Uh, the speaking of SoundCloud, um, I know there's been debate in the podcast community about whether. Go under for a couple of years or at least abandoned old podcasts and stuff.
[00:06:04] I saw on the pod to pod slack a little bit ago, somebody was doing some scraping of where podcasts are hosted and SoundCloud was number one by like by twice as much as the
[00:06:18] Mark: next. Yes, I can corroborate that. I've done. I've done a similar scrape. Yeah. I didn't
[00:06:23] Brendan: realize how, like I knew. People were on there, but I didn't realize how dominant that was.
[00:06:28] So did you take a look at the infinite dial research and, and, um, analytics and stuff that came from
[00:06:33] Mark: that? Um, I had a look at the, um, the infographic and a to begin with and, um, I'm really intrigued by 19% of people increasing the speed of
[00:06:42] Brendan: podcasts. Yeah. Only. Or is it high?
[00:06:45] Mark: I think that's, I think that's high.
[00:06:48] I'm surprised. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. I'm surprised that nearly what one in five people. Um, yeah. Thinks to do that. And, uh, yeah, I think that's interesting. And I actually, you will probably know this more than I do because I'm not sure off the top of my head, but the apple podcasts app has that facility.
[00:07:10] Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. Um, I think, I think if it didn't, that number would be a lot smaller butts. Well, you know, that'd be a lot of things, numbers, um, yeah, exactly. But I, yeah, I, I do find that, um, I, I I'm quite surprised. I think that's high, but you, you, you obviously, uh, yeah. I,
[00:07:28] Brendan: you know, after you've explained your position, I'm incredibly, um, flexible.
[00:07:34] Somebody makes an argument for something. Oh yeah, you're right. You know what? This is good. Um, yeah, I was thinking it was kind of low just because, uh, every podcast app that I've seen has the ability to change the speeds. Uh, and I dunno, like, uh, in, in the, in the bubble of podcasts, listening that I am in, everybody is talking about it all the time and, uh, and speed listening and, and super listening and all that kind of stuff is a, it's always a topic that comes up a badge of honor.
[00:08:05] Yeah. And so I, I'm definitely in, in, in a, in a bubble when it comes to that,
[00:08:11] Mark: do you do it with
[00:08:11] Brendan: audio books? Uh, yes. Yeah, I listened. Um, so with Libby, I have it set to 1.75. Speed, which you know, for definitely like for audio books, they're intentionally reading slow. They're trying to be enunciate and be very clear.
[00:08:29] Oh. As you know, and,
[00:08:30] Mark: uh, so some of it is, is drama. Um, so, you know, as, as a former career, as a, uh, a very short-lived career as an audio book, narrator, a lot of it is drama now. I think when it's to do with something factual. Yeah. I think it's, it's more about getting it into your brain as quickly as possible, but yeah.
[00:08:47] You know, would you watch game of Thrones at 1.75 speed?
[00:08:52] Brendan: I watched a well, okay. On, on real watches of certain movies, I will. Um, I will bump up the speed. Like I re I rewatched, um, renegades. I rewatched, uh, the Avengers movie right before, uh, the second Avengers movie was coming out and I watched it at like 1.2, five or 1.3 or four, something like that on cause the PlayStation can do that really easily.
[00:09:22] And, or maybe it was quick time. Oh, it was. And, uh, yeah, it was, yeah. You know, it was good, but I had already seen it.
[00:09:29] Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Well, there you go. Only seven podcasts per week for the Aboriginal. That was my next
[00:09:35] Brendan: thing as well. So that's up from five from the previous year, which is good to see that more podcasts are being, um, consumed.
[00:09:44] What, think one of the comments from the presenters of infinite Dale mentioned that they expect that that is due to. The, um, proliferation of short news podcasts by big outlets, like the daily MPR. Um, and now Fox has a really great, um, what's that called today? Explained. Oh, I love that show. Um, I'm looking for a new daily show.
[00:10:10] Oh yeah. Oh my gosh. Fantastic. Wow. It's like, I don't know if you've listened to the daily by the New York times today explained it it's a lot like the daily, except they have fun with it and they do, they do music parodies and they do like, uh, I mean they did, they did an episode about the Mueller investigation and.
[00:10:35] They said it too. They did a parody of it, of everybody who's been indicted by Mueller set two. We didn't start the fire. It is hilarious. Russian Brode scandal all across the globe, drinking in a London bar with popping down the list, which Donald Trump, Robert Mueller busting humps, Mike Flynn's sessions in Russian politics.
[00:11:00] They have way too many. For a mattress firm. But other than that, uh, the show is really great. So I highly recommend I'm just
[00:11:09] Mark: discovering that there is an actual company called mattress firm. Oh yeah. I didn't realize you were you weren't being generic. It's like orange drink. You have mattress firm. Yeah. I mean, I get like, I get the joke, but also acid.
[00:11:25] Brendan: Yeah, but yeah, seven podcasts a week. That's what the topic was. Um, yeah, on one hand, I'm glad to see it's rising, but on the other it's it's so low. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's one a day, you know, which cool. If people are listening to one a day, it's going to be. So always there, but if I, if I could only listen to one podcast today, I have no idea which one I would choose.
[00:11:46] Mark: that's a great question. When I do, um, I have to revisit that as a, as a, as a little topic. There's an island podcast. Well, I guess
[00:11:53] Brendan: it would be, if you could choose seven podcasts for per week, that'd be a little bit easier. Then only one
[00:12:00] Mark: podcast today. Yeah. You've got a tiny little pebble, like, um, like a Sony MP3 player.
[00:12:07] Um, and it can only fit a tiny number of pods. I'm pretty sure. I used to listen to podcasts on my Sony Ericsson phone. Yeah. You're
[00:12:15] Brendan: old school. Oh yeah, yeah. Mine. I was, I was on an iPod that was. Finally, I finally done my first iPod in 2007. Oh, same here. Oh yeah. Yeah. And so that was how I, uh, that was how I did my podcasts.
[00:12:29] Mark: Can you remember the first show you listen to on the iPod?
[00:12:31] Brendan: Uh, probably this week in tech I've I've tried to, I've tried to stand my brain back and I'm sure it was apple related. Uh, it might've been. It might've been Mac break weekly. It might've been, oh, it was probably Mac break weekly over this weekend tech.
[00:12:49] Um, and, uh, and for the longest time I thought that, um, Merlin, Mann and Andy and NACO, or like, Biggest names and podcasts. Cause they were like, they were like talked about as guests on the show, but they were always there and for a long time, and then I realized, because I'd only looked at tech stuff, but there was like this whole world of podcasts that I was just narrowly looking at.
[00:13:16] Mark: yes, indeed. Um, what about you? What was your first pocket now? Um, the first. I mean when it came to like portable devices? Um, it was probably because I started listening to, I mean, I, you know, going back a few years, but like, let's, let's just stick with portable listening. It would have been smart cast.
[00:13:37] Um, I'm pretty sure. And then. Definitely remember answer me this being one of the first things I got from the iTunes
[00:13:46] Brendan: store. So you were talking about mobile listening. Did you ever listen on a computer, like podcasts, listening on a computer, a thing
[00:13:55] Mark: for you? Yeah, that was how I discovered podcasts. Um, 2009.
[00:14:00] For four or five, um, we'll be safe and say five. And I think it was the wreckage of AEs show. Um, and I was, I was intrigued straight away by this idea that you could get content that would automatically download. And so I tried to find, um, a good. Pod catcher for when amp, um, because
[00:14:27] Brendan: I love to win when it really
[00:14:30] Mark: whips the llamas I've talked before on, um, on the show packaged, when I was interviewed for that about one of my big regrets is that I didn't get into podcasting when I should have.
[00:14:40] Um, and it, I think it was because I was listening to quote unquote professionals. Like I was listening to people that I knew from off of the tele, uh, or radio. Um, whereas if I would have started with this week in tech that they are professionals, but they are not known for another thing, if you know what I mean?
[00:14:59] Um, yeah. And so, or even, you know, some of the, um, some of the more sort of spit and sawdust shows, I think that would have inspired me to be like, oh, I can do this. Whereas when I listened, I was like, oh, okay, well you need a studio and you need it all needs to sound good and right. That's one of my biggest regrets is it took me three, four years before I actually made my first show, which is a crying shame.
[00:15:27] Brendan: Yeah. I, um, it took me a long time obviously to get into making podcasts, but I didn't, um, I didn't ever listen to ever listen to podcasts on a computer. Like that just never seemed like something that would entice me at all. And I. I until I started making the podcasts on podium, like the thought of having a website so that people could listen with the little players and everything just was like, why bother?
[00:15:58] Like what, what's the point? Why who would listen on a computer? And then I go, and then I see infinite dials research and, you know, it's, it's still in like the 30% or something like that, where people listen on a computer instead of. On a mobile device. Yeah, I just, I can't, I don't. Yes. At 29% this year. Uh, I, I just don't understand to me.
[00:16:21] A podcast is such a mobile. Entertainment medium. Yes.
[00:16:25] Mark: But it's also that you understand what the word podcast means. So to you, it has a specific meaning. Whereas, you know, if I, if I produce a show and I went to get, for example, my dad to listen to it, I just give him the web. Because it's far easier than, you know, and it's some of the stuff we've tried to tackle with the likes of the pod, to your alleys.
[00:16:47] It's trying to make that stuff easier, but there's still a barrier there, whereas everyone understands the web. Um, you know, I think we are now at a stage where most people don't type web addresses into Google. They understand that they, well, actually, you know what? No, that's probably not the case. I think web browsers have ushered that in.
[00:17:05] Yeah, exactly. They they've
[00:17:06] Brendan: made the unit bar. Yeah.
[00:17:09] Mark: That's that's what happened there, because if they hadn't, people would still be typing www.facebook.com into Google. Yep. Um, so with that in mind, uh, there is still a, uh, a way to go to getting people, to listen in an environment that is designed for that listening and is, is mobile first.
[00:17:30] And yeah, because there's even people who will, I think listen to an episode of a podcast on their mobile, but through the web browser,
[00:17:39] Brendan: Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Is there anything as producers or advocates for podcasts that we should do to help people? I mean, besides just telling everybody we know, is there, is there, is there something that we're supposed to be doing to, uh, make podcasts more known?
[00:17:58] Mark: That's a really good question. And I, I wish I knew the answer. Um, I think it's the, the problem is it's. It's kind of boring, um, to have to explain to someone, whereas like, if you take, for example, I think we've mentioned this before. Like my, my thinking of it and it may be one key, but my thinking of it is because there isn't an overarching and I'm not advocating this, but because there isn't an overarching company that is in charge of the podcasts, like there is with YouTube, um, right.
[00:18:32] You can just. Say oh, it's available on YouTube. And so you download the YouTube app and right. And then there you go. Um, and I think to a degree, iTunes is useful for that, but it's not everywhere. And it's, it's only on apple devices, uh, and, and windows it's, you know, um, for most people who have Android phones more than apple, uh, but it's more than that than have iPhones.
[00:19:01] You can't there. Isn't that one place where you say, you just, just go here. And then those that are in the know can pick, you know, it's like with Twitter and tweet bot, so people who just want to use Twitter will use the Twitter app, but then people who want a particular experience we'll use Tweety or tweet Bartle, or, you know, Twitter ethic.
[00:19:22] Um, and there isn't a similar thing. For podcasts.
[00:19:29] Brendan: I don't know if you've followed along in different, um, social communities where they've been talking about the latest update to Apple's podcast app, but people are obviously the most used. My far, but people are abandoning it in troves. They're posting on my, why doesn't apple podcast app suck now.
[00:19:49] Like why, why is it deleting all my podcasts? Why won't it sink properly? Why, why this or that? I have, I have missed that. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I've, I've seen it on, on multiple Facebook groups. Uh, Reddit, the Reddit R slash podcast is like every two days. There's somebody posting on that. Um, It's, it's definitely something that people are upset about.
[00:20:15] Mark: Kevin's got a write-up on the, um, on the stats that we were talking about.
[00:20:19] Brendan: Kevin from Kevin Goldberg from discover pontins.com. I'm being
[00:20:23] Mark: terribly insular. I'm being one of them now. I'm I'm being, yeah, I'm being, I'm being one of the. One of the, one of, one of the pod delete that just assumes that everybody knows who we're talking about.
[00:20:34] Become one of them. I have a
[00:20:36] Brendan: link in the show notes to his breakdown of the infinite dial, uh, and takeaways from what about podcasts? What, uh, interesting things happen.
[00:20:43] Mark: And I'm speaking of, uh, Kevin Goldberg, um, you were interviewed along with 20 other. Uh, about your, your, uh, your insights and thoughts on the future of podcasting?
[00:20:58] Brendan: I want it. So I was very fortunate to be approached by punt chaser.com. Uh, Cole over there asked me what I was thinking of as the future with the past present and future of, uh, of podcasts and. It was a, it was quite the honor to be looked at as an authority because especially with the group of people that I was there with.
[00:21:19] So yeah, there's a John Dryden from panoply, Dan Franks from podcast movement. Uh, my uncle out from radio public me for some reason. And, uh, A bunch of others, Ariel listen, Blatt from earbuds podcast, collective she's really great. And Kevin Goldberg, of course. Yeah. So, you know, for me, like they, they asked like kind of where, where you came from, what?
[00:21:42] So I give a little backstory on. My, um, podcast history and then where I see it going. And I, I dunno, I just, I see a lot of innovation lately. Um, not just innovation, but also just experimentation, which is really fun. Um, there's a lot more shorter podcasts lately. Uh, and I think that, that, I think that's helping with the seven podcasts a week as we were talking about before.
[00:22:10] Um, There's a lot more apps. Um, I, I, I keep a folder on my phone of all. Well, not all, but most of the bigger podcast apps and it keeps growing and growing. Um, I like to try out all of them to see, make sure I still love overcast the best. And I always do. Um, term description is, has, especially for audio dramas and, um, D and D podcasts transcription has really becoming huge for the hearing impaired committee.
[00:22:39] So that they can enjoy that audio experience as well. Um, even if it's, you know, more difficult for them to process that. And as somebody who has hearing problems, I really love that that trend is going. And then also like this there's a new emerging, um, trend where, uh, podcasts are being completely automated, completely robot, um, where a robot can write, the podcast can read the podcasts and can post the podcast.
[00:23:13] So that's a fun look into the future of a medium where typically it was just humans. Yeah. Oh, you have not heard about that. No. Oh, yep. Fun trend.
[00:23:25] Mark: Wow. I mean, because for a long time there's been this thing of, um, you could take a, a blog post and, um, and put it through a speech to text thing, and then that turned into a podcast.
[00:23:37] But I guess once you start adding in the, the whole thing of something, writing the podcast. Wow.
[00:23:43] Brendan: Yeah. I read somewhere recently about how many. Like just news updates, especially for, for smaller. Um, maybe less reputable, um, news aggregators that, that more or less, just that copy and link from other bigger news outlets that are just trying to get ad clicks and stuff.
[00:24:08] They will just use bots to scrape and rewrite other news articles and then post it and try and get SEO to get ad clicks and stuff. And so they're, they're training bots more and more to just write and rewrite stuff. That, uh, apparently not moving on to podcasts, but also, um, more cool innovations other than our jobs being taken away and things like audio grams, where they, you know, sharable, um, little more or less videos, but it's really just, you're there for the audio.
[00:24:41] It has a little wave form, which is. And, uh, I don't know. I just, uh, like I say, in the thing, I, I can't imagine a future future without this, um, this audio medium with whole bunch of random strangers all around the world, talking to me in my head.
[00:24:57] Mark: We like our head friends.
[00:24:58] Brendan: Yes. And then also like, um, uh, you know, kind of some of the stuff that you slash, I, we have been working on with, with pod two and with, uh, decentralization.
[00:25:09] Using, um, the blockchains and, uh, and that could be, that could be really interesting. And the next, I don't know, two, three years of where we could see podcasts. Uh, you know how far it could reach, how, um, how much it could change. Like, I you've explained blockchain to me and others have exchanged blockchain, blockchain to me and I get it.
[00:25:35] It's a spreadsheet, but it's a in the sky. It's still, it's still a bit like hard, hard for me to. What that really changes for anything, let alone for podcasts, but I get it. I get that. It can do stuff. So I'm curious to see where it goes. Yeah,
[00:25:52] Mark: I think, I think honestly, the, the, the best thing is about it is that, um, databases are usually, and it's, it's not quite a database, but because it can't store very complex information, but if you need a, you know, effectively a few columns of data and then many, many thousands of rows,
[00:26:11] You can have a system where that is distributed and there are multiple points of failure, but also that data is not owned by one person. So it's a long way off yet, but the possibilities are, are exciting.
[00:26:25] Brendan: Yeah. I feel like the, the main takeaways were, um, audio dramas are going to be. Um, uh, discovery is still a problem, but Todd said it's fine.
[00:26:34] And, uh, uh, but yeah, yeah, there's still a discovery problem happens, happens to be the case. And, uh, and then innovation just like something w innovation is going to come people out there doing stuff, and that's going to be cool. I
[00:26:47] Mark: think it's interesting that you've got. The likes of, uh, of just Jessica style from the Washington post saying that discovery is still a problem.
[00:26:55] Um, I think it's interesting that they talk about advertising still being a problem. And I, I feel like that's doing pretty well, but then that's slightly an outsider looking
[00:27:04] Brendan: in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's really interesting, right? Because on some podcasts like Washington post, the daily, uh, NPR shows, they have this breadth of.
[00:27:16] Alternate, um, advertisers that they can kind of pull from, um, people who are used to advertising and everything, but where the scrappy startup podcasts universe that, that has mostly been out here is all pulling from a Squarespace Casper, um, and you know, the other blue apron and all the big names. Well, I dunno that you hear all the time here in the U S we hear all the same ads all the time.
[00:27:42] So it's, you know, seeing more and more advertisers would, would be good for the, the longevity and stability of the platform. But also I like how. I like how much of a relationship podcasters build with their advertisers and how it, you know, you can kind of tell when somebody is reading a script for something that they enjoy rather than something that they are
[00:28:08] Mark: told to read for it.
[00:28:09] Absolutely. Um, I, I, I. As much as I'm an, I think you're the same, not necessarily a fan of dynamic ad injection because it's not done well. Right. Um, that doesn't mean that the technology, I mean, I love the tech behind it. I think it's great. I love the idea that you can, you know, slow. Just slice the audio and swap in some different audio button.
[00:28:34] That makes complete sense. Yeah. Unless it can be done in a way that sounds more natural, uh, cohesive and sounds yeah. More natural then, then, you know, stop it. Um, yeah, exactly. But the, the benefit to that of being able to give you more local content, which is something that a cast do a bit, I think. That's really interesting.
[00:28:58] And, um, there, there are, there are interesting possibilities, um, for w we're only starting to really play with play with that medium. Um, you know, the, the dynamic ad injection is, is it's only caught on in the last couple of years. Um, and it's, you know, w we're seeing more and more of it. And I think then that there are, there are other potentially more interesting ways of being able to deliver.
[00:29:25] Content that is, um, you know, that that changes or is more tailored to you. I don't know, um, that there is, there is so much untapped potential in this market that is it's, it's astounding really. And, and you take of the markets and it's, it's interesting why. Podcasting has been, I would say, slow to innovate.
[00:29:51] I think in terms of the, not just the technology, I think the, the programming has innovated, you know, the actual content that we make and the different styles of shows, you know, we've gone from it basically being a rebroadcast of a live show to, you know, some really interesting, um, dramas and comedies and all sorts of things.
[00:30:12] Like we've really, really. Made strides, but we are still talking about the same kind of problems. And it does interest me that in that way we haven't read. Moved along the
[00:30:26] Brendan: Astra.
[00:30:35] Mark: It's been fun. I think we should probably do this again. That sounds good. How about next week? Yes. When I hopefully don't have a cold. Yes. Um, where can people find you on the internet? Probably
[00:30:45] Brendan: the best place is on Twitter at the pod playlist. Um, and you can also look at my. At podcast advocate network.
[00:30:53] How about you?
[00:30:54] Mark: I can be found on the internet shouting into the void, uh, on Twitter at, uh, I am Stedman stedman.io, and also of course, potent, uh, if you're interested, potent.co is the place to go to host podcast. Uh, and then you can speak to Brendan and ask, um, you can have it on his network. Um, Sweet.