Marketing podcasts correctly (no, this is not a BS session)

[00:00:00] Brendan: How are you today? I'm good. How are you? Dumb question. All right. I shouldn't ask you how you are today. Is it a normal plug,

[00:00:09] Mark: this thing to do normal human thing to do, and I think that's a good enough reason to do it.

[00:00:24] Brendan: Hey Mark Steadman.

[00:00:25] Mark: Hey, Brendan Hutchins and

[00:00:27] Brendan: welcome Kevin Goldberg. Thanks for having me. So I think you should start off by trying to find a new favorite show from mark. Oh, okay. Uh, did you have any, did you have any suggestions, Kevin? I've been

[00:00:39] Kevin: listening to dissect reasonably.

[00:00:41] Um, so mark, I don't know how. How familiar you are with hip hop or across the pond, how popular it is. But dissect is a serialized music podcast that each season dives deep into a specific hip hop album analyzing the context that created it. The lyrical breakdown, the production, and the first season does Kendrick Lamar's to pimp a butterfly.

[00:01:03] The second is Kanye west and all of his recent Twitter glory. I'm doing my beautiful dark twisted. Um, so yeah, just finished both of those. They're really tremendous. Um, just the level of production value and the thought that goes into them. Uh, the host Cole Krishna basically treats them like, um, a college course.

[00:01:25] It's, it's really interesting.

[00:01:27] Mark: That, that sounds good. I, I listened to, I don't think I actually listened to any music podcasts. I'm subscribed to one or two, but I haven't yet actually, um, listened to them and I'll be honest. This is. Well, I'd like to give it a go. I mean, I can tell you straight away that, um, as much as I sort of don't mind hip hop, most of modern hip hop kind of leaves me cold.

[00:01:52] Um, I'm not like I get how artistic and interesting, um, Kendrick Lamar is, but I never really got the. The Ms. Mr. West, um, so much

[00:02:06] Kevin: I'm back to the drawing board. I'll, uh, I'll get a new recommendation queued up. Ready?

[00:02:10] Mark: It's fine. I, I, you know, I, I'm not throwing it out and, and that's the thing it's, um, I think it, it should be good to get out of one's comfort zone, uh, and maybe listen to something that I, you know, I typically wouldn't, so, uh, I think it's, it's worth at least giving it a go because you never know.

[00:02:24] I might, I might open up a whole new world for myself. Yeah.

[00:02:26] Brendan: I think this should be a set, a reoccurring segment, even if we do find your new favorite. So we got to find

[00:02:31] Mark: their replacement. After that one, make mark listen to things that he wouldn't normally listen to. I like it.

[00:02:36] Brendan: Well, if you, if, if the music podcast, isn't your thing, maybe movies is, do you listen or have you listened to Douglas?

[00:02:43] Mark: I know we talked about this a few weeks ago. Didn't we? And I still haven't listened.

[00:02:48] Brendan: Well, that would be my recommendation. Give that one a shot. I would say, look back, uh, in the recent few episodes to see if there's a comedian, you recognize. And, uh, and try that one out. So it looks like you have some follow up on our talk about, uh, the, the Google changes on Android phones and

[00:03:06] Mark: that kind of stuff.

[00:03:07] Yeah. A massive thanks to George from the snippy tech podcast who got in touch and, uh, shared some screenshots and, uh, sort of, um, the, the flow that, the process of how it all works. Um, and it's, uh, Um, you know, more modern, uh, Android phones, um, probably more towards the stock Android possibly. Uh, so I think, you know, certain, certain skins and certain versions of Android, you know, it might be the only, the sort of Google play, uh, varieties of, of, um, Android phone support this, but, uh, my.

[00:03:42] Couple of years or few years old HDC, um, a test device doesn't but he, he sent some, some comprehensive, um, screenshots through of, of what the stuff looks like. And it's, um, it's really good. And I'm pleased to say that all of, uh, all of podium, um, already supports it, which I was certain it did, but it was nice to have the confirmation.

[00:04:04] Um, so, uh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, massive, thanks to George for. For sharing that. And, uh, you, if you want to see what it, um, similar, it looks like if you have an Android phone, if you want to check out the podcast, then you can just Google snappy tech podcast. Uh, and you will see what it, uh, what it all looks like in it.

[00:04:23] So it's really good. Very cool. And we also had some follow-up, uh, regarding the shows that we were talking about last week. Uh, the two new Gimlet bingeable shows, um, Sandra and, uh, the habitat. And, uh, I completed both and I think, uh, I think the habitat was a lovely production.

[00:04:46] Kevin: There's some words on spoken there.

[00:04:47] No, nothing

[00:04:48] Mark: under the, nothing under the surface. I, I genuinely, it was, that was the thing that I came away with. It was, um, the, the tone of it and the, the storytelling. It was just a really lovely, nice. Experience the whole thing, you know, it was put together really, really well and crafted in that sort of beautiful Gimlet way that I feel like I haven't heard for a while.

[00:05:12] Um, and I don't think that's a slam on them. I just think whatever. Uh, I think the, the, the types of shows that they're making a very different, but I think it's got back to that really nice mark of quality and that mark of a storytelling prowess that they, that they show. Um, or they have shown in previous shows I think is absolutely there.

[00:05:32] And it was, it was a thoroughly enjoyable. This I couldn't

[00:05:36] Kevin: help, but think how impossible it would be for me to survive in that situation. Uh, you know, those times when he have like a friend come from out of town, they stay with you for the weekend. And I Sunday, you're kind of looking at your, your watch, like, oh, when did, when did your flight leave again?

[00:05:50] That's that's me to like the extreme, so I don't know how I can make it more than three days. Let alone. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it was a great podcast. It told a lovely story. It was, it was interesting to see how the host navigated the production of it, because she obviously couldn't be inside there, uh, to, to kind of, um, ask leading questions or get the story she wanted.

[00:06:13] She was kind of at their disposal. Um, so I think all in all, it was, it was a great podcast. You know, with the logistics, I'm kind of upset. They don't get a follow-up. Um, maybe we can do like a, where are they now? But, um, yeah, for what it was, I thought it

[00:06:28] Brendan: was great when I was listening. The thought of being like the thought of being one of the members.

[00:06:36] Like it was a, yeah, I could do that. I don't know. Maybe, uh, it's not something I would ever sign up to do, but if I was forced to do it, like, I think I'd be okay. Um, The, the, my, my biggest problem with it would be that I wouldn't be able to listen to podcasts for a year. And that, that would severely add to my backlog.

[00:06:55] Like I pro I would probably be the guy, uh, at the very beginning and the very end that is like, oh, I won't hope I even walking away from this with five new best friends. Uh, I spend all my time with these people and get to know them really well. And. Um, ever the optimist, um, but, uh, overall the production was very Gimlet.

[00:07:17] Um, it was easy to listen to, um, and enjoyable. It wasn't something like that super stood out to me. It was just kind of. It, it, it happened, they enjoyed it, but it wasn't something that I would like, I mean, spend five minutes talking about it on a podcast. So yeah. What about, what about Sandra?

[00:07:40] Mark: I think, uh, I broadly enjoyed, but kind of left me a little bit, a little bit mad.

[00:07:49] Um, uh, I think. Th there's, you know, there's some unanswered questions and obviously, uh, something of a cliffhanger. Um, yeah, I wasn't sort of thinking, well, what, can't wait to find out what happens next. And I think I was, uh, it was a bit more gripped by homecoming. Um, some of the performances were a bit cartoony.

[00:08:12] Um, and I like, I like Allie a shortcut. Um, yeah, I think Kristen wig did a good job of being a computer. Um, I think it maybe could have done with a bit more production, like something like the gloss, uh, type production work that was done on portal. So that kind of thing maybe would have given it a bit more.

[00:08:30] But I think one of the, one of the, the things that I did appreciate about it, I think was, was actually the outbreaks, um, in, in as much as. Uh, not cause it took me away from the show, but I, I like how they approach them. They sort of wove the idea of an alternative reality to the, to the reality we live in, in the Sandra universe, um, to, uh, talk about, you know, I think the best ones were the Mozilla ads and how they addressed privacy.

[00:08:59] Um, and I think that they were done really, really well. There were

[00:09:03] Brendan: just so many ad break that. Bingeable podcast. Like they have pre and postnatal ads and mid-roll ads, the pre and post roll, they roll into each other. So you're hearing the same ad right after the bat, right after itself. And yes, uh, not, not super well thought out, I think for how they released it.

[00:09:25] I think that's a really good point. Um, but then also the Mozilla ads actually left me. I mean, I love that. Almost all the ads had the theme of the show. So you're kind of staying in the world. I definitely, I think that was well done. I think that they obviously spent some time thinking about it and not just, um, slapping some ads on to get paid, but.

[00:09:47] The Mozilla ads actually left me with a sour taste of Mozilla in my mouth because they were all negative. They were all, oh, this smart assistant is going to track you. They're going to send you ads. They're going to do things that you don't want them to do. Mozilla, Firefox, bad things and Firefox, you know, like, uh, and so I kept actually having a negative connotation with it and, and walked away, not, not with a favorable view of them in my

[00:10:12] Kevin: mind.

[00:10:13] I thought it was. Okay. In terms of the production was interesting. The story was, was about average. Like the both of you. I was much more enthralled with homecoming. Um, Brendan knows my thoughts on this, but you have Kristin wig. Who's probably the best character actress of the last 25, 30 years. Like her work on SNL and through bridesmaids, like her characters and what she's able to convey is like very personable and very.

[00:10:41] And you have this huge personality who's able to convey, like basically whatever. And you deduce her to a robotic voice. Uh, I just, I thought that casting decision was just, uh, questionable. Like why? I don't know, you have like a Ferrari or some corny cliche, but, uh, it was just odd. Were the voices in homecoming, they were, you know, big names, but their voices were unique and I thought they, they made sense for the characters they played.

[00:11:11] In this one, even, even Ethan Hawke's character, you know, that could have been just anybody that's fair. Uh, so yeah, I just thought that was, that was questionable. Um, the cliffhanger at the end, I thought it wasn't as much of a cliffhanger as they're just missing apart. Yep. And, and the last thing is the tech just doesn't make sense, like a human behind our voice assistance.

[00:11:34] They would be slow. They would be inconsistent. Uh, especially if you have a variety of people answering the questions and then, um, the main character, uh, I think it was Helen. She doesn't know anything about birds and she's assigned to birds. Like, I, I don't know, Amazon and Google and apple spend millions upon millions of dollars to make sure their answers are instant and precise and having a human behind it kind of undoes all their work.

[00:12:01] Uh, you know, There's nothing different from that versus us Googling the answer on our phone.

[00:12:11] Brendan: so Gimlet was able to, uh, to really get everybody's attention with, uh, their release of, of their spring, uh, podcast launch and everything. And so they were able to get a bunch of attention, but they mostly, I'm assuming got attention from people who already listened to podcasts and. It seems like in order for a lot of podcasts to be more discoverable and have a bigger audience in, um, in their podcasts and grow their market share, they should probably be marketing in different ways.

[00:12:44] Uh, Kevin, you had an awesome article on your website, discover ponds.com about podcast marketing. And I would love to. Uh, pick your brain a little bit more about how you think, uh, all podcasts are marketed and correctly. Sure. Yeah.

[00:13:03] Kevin: Um, so basically the, the quick synopsis of, of my thoughts there is, uh, basically less than half the us population listens to podcasts are familiar with podcasts, uh, per Edison research.

[00:13:15] And what podcasters do when they have a marketing department, which you know, to be Frank is, is kind of rare. Most are just dedicated on creating the podcast and putting it out there and hoping it goes viral, which hope isn't really a good marketing strategy, but, um, teach their own is these people are, are marketing to existing podcast fans.

[00:13:35] And as you or anybody will attest. Podcast fans are very habitual. You listen to the same podcasts that come out on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and so on. Uh, only when something brand new and really exciting comes out. Are you willing to kind of change up your routine and allow that to, to get some airtime?

[00:13:55] So you're marketing to people that are going to be stubborn. Um, And if they're willing to, to invite your podcast into the fold, they're probably willing to do that for others as well. So there's some suspect on how loyal they're going to be. But my theory is that instead of marketing to existing podcasts, user users, we should market to non podcast listeners.

[00:14:20] If you think back to the first podcast you heard of the first couple of years there, they were intriguing. They were enthralling and they converted you from, wow, what's this new medium to holy crap. I'm now a diehard podcast fan. And so replicating that kind of marketing function and targeting. Never before listeners of podcasts, uh, one is a larger population and two, you have the chance to form some habits.

[00:14:48] You have some basically you can inject your podcast into their decisions. So when they're creating brand new routines, yours is at the top rather than trying to wedge your way in between somebody's existing routine. Yes,

[00:15:01] Brendan: there was a good point. So when I am. Um, I don't ever advertise a podcast, like actually pay money for it.

[00:15:09] But when I'm promoting a podcast, I'm going to places like, uh, groups on Facebook. Um, I'm using hashtags on Twitter, uh, posting, um, um, the R slash podcast, subreddit going and podcast related slacks, you know, word of mouth, um, hopefully getting on other people's podcasts and have them talk about my podcast.

[00:15:29] And then there's also the, the ability to use ads in podcasts apps like overcast. And so those are all marketing towards the same group of people who are already podcasts focused. Obviously they're in some sort of podcast related area in order to find that if still on one hand, it makes sense because you know, they're already going to listen to podcasts.

[00:15:50] You're not marketing to people who don't like audio for some reason. Um, but how do you, what do you recommend. How do you have any strategies that you think people should do to get to those people who haven't listened to podcasts? How do you, how do you filter for non podcast listener already?

[00:16:08] Kevin: Sure. Yeah.

[00:16:09] Um, I mean, I'll also be the first to admit that there are people, you know, mostly older people that will never listen to podcasts and that's just. Whatever marketing you do is not going to change that. Um, to your question though, the, the easy answer would be, it depends. It depends on what your podcast is about.

[00:16:28] So if you have a podcast that's about gardening and you could advertise to garden fanatics on existing blogs forums. Um, magazines, things like that. Um, that would be, you know, a route you can go to Facebook, as everybody knows now, uh, through the Cambridge Analytica stuff has all this data. And so you're basically able to zero in on.

[00:16:57] Fans of basically any genre. So if you're a podcast on XYZ, you can target fans of XYZ on Facebook. If you're lucky enough to have an email list, you can replicate this email list into Facebook and they call it a lookalike audience. So what it does is. It uses an algorithm to parse through your, your lists, see what interests they're interested in and replicate that with a new set of users.

[00:17:22] Um, so theoretically the new set would be interested as well. Um, these are just, you know, little things. Um, but what I wanted with the article is for people to think outside the box, what you're doing Brendan, uh, with your existing podcast is great. Um, the issue, and you're probably aware of this. A ton of other podcasters are doing the exact same thing.

[00:17:45] So when you put your podcasts into these forums, into these Facebook groups, you're adding to the noise and you're quickly getting lost in the shuffle. Uh, so thinking outside the box, thinking maybe more traditional routes as, as silly as that sounds, um, is a way to stand out against the crowd goes

[00:18:05] Mark: to, uh, something that, that was a question that, that I've been pondering at the moment is the value of.

[00:18:11] Advertising to podcasters, you know, I, I, um, uh, if you, if you'll pardon the mild swear, I don't go in for the, um, the weekend Wang Fest that, uh, is in the podcast, a support group. I don't post, I used to, but I don't post to the, our subreddit. They are podcasts subreddit then weekly or the daily, um, posts thing, because I.

[00:18:36] Because everybody's doing the same thing, just a time consuming. It is. I think it's also that it's time consuming for what I don't perceive as being a huge amount of gain. Now, obviously for a show like this, this specific show is targeted at podcasters. Right. And so, or, you know, people who are interested in the culture of podcasting.

[00:18:54] Absolutely. And so that makes sense, but. Um, you know, if it's, if it's the beware of the leopard or it or it's thread, which is an impossible show to market, cause it's not about anything. Um, but you take the wherever, the leopard, the, you know, I, I, and I'm not, I'm not being, um, down on anyone who does this, but I, I don't see the value myself in posting to, um, forums that.

[00:19:21] Where people are doing the same thing and slack rooms have this as well. You have the, you know, number of slack communities for podcasters and they have a promotion, um, room in that channel. And I, again, I don't know. It just feels like adding to the noise because everybody wants to do the same thing.

[00:19:41] Everybody wants their podcast to be listened to. Um, and I think you're right, Kevin, you know, part of what we need to do is attack those people, uh, not physically, but, uh, attack, attack those audiences that aren't already listening to podcasts. Um, so I, I doubt there's much more to it. To that, but w so I'll segue into ways that we can maybe make listeners' lives easier.

[00:20:05] And potentially, is there a role for, obviously we've just spent a lot of time talking about Sandra, is there a role for. The cylinders that we have in our houses and making podcasts easier to find and listen to so that your aunt or your grandma, or, you know, your, your slightly older neighbor, who's not as clued in, can just talk to their thing and say, I want to hear this

[00:20:30] Kevin: show.

[00:20:31] Yeah. I mean, I think that's, that's the end goal for a lot of things. And the Google news from, from last week is really encouraging. Um, you have a super power, like Google that. Before, you know, last week was, was kind of, um, kind of absent from the podcast conversation, you know, as much as you have the lukewarm on it and you know, apple is as well, but at least they have a native app, um, which it goes to show the iOS versus Android breakdown of podcast listeners.

[00:21:00] I think it's directly attributed to the fact that they have a native app on every, every iPhone. Um, so Google. Google's work in increasing discoverability, adding search, uh, treating audio like a first class citizen, um, indexing audio, all of that will, will be major on the discovery part. Uh, I'm hesitant to, to basically say we fix the problem until I see it in action.

[00:21:25] Um, You know, it looked cool from the screenshots and the Pacific content, a series. It looked hopeful. What, what I haven't seen is how this looks in the real world, um, what people are actually searching for and how podcasts will show up in the results that way. Um, but I, I think the early stuff is there.

[00:21:46] And even if this is a glorified beta test, it's moving in the right way. Mark. I might not have answered your question.

[00:21:53] Mark: I'm not, I'm not entirely sure that I really had a question. Um, I think this is it. It's the holy it's absolutely the holy grail for, for, um, small, independent podcasters. Um, and I think it's a Testament to why these communities exist to a degree because, you know, You know, th this is why people market, their podcast to other podcasters is because they know that there's at least a or the, the, the, the idea is that there is a bit more of a likelihood that they are listened because they're already podcasters and they also get it.

[00:22:32] They know how hard it is to market. And they're hoping that maybe someone will just give them that extra boost. But I think. One of the, one of the difficult things that it's something I talk about a lot, having been a developer is you, you make the thing and, and that is so rarely the end of the story.

[00:22:51] And it has to be, you know, if you look at any big film, um, they spend as much, if not, in some cases, more marketing the film than they do to actually make it. And that is significant. Oh yeah.

[00:23:05] Brendan: I agree.

[00:23:06] Kevin: I will say though. If the contents are not there. If, if your podcast is, is mediocre at best. All of the marketing and the world's not going to save it because at the end of the day, you don't want a one-time listener.

[00:23:18] You want a loyal listener, that's that subscribes. And you know, whether you put out a new podcast every week or every month, you want them coming back. So you could be the best marketer in the world, but your podcast is, is just sub-par and people are going to tune out because the competition is there.

[00:23:35] They can always tune into something better. Um, One of the suggestions I made in the aforementioned article is basically. Uh, installing kind of a word of mouth engine into your podcasts? Uh, I think the, the infinite dial, um, or the podcast consumer talked about word of mouth, still being the largest driver of podcasts recommendations and most trusted recommendations.

[00:24:01] Only 30%. Yeah. It's major. And the best part about this is it's free. Right? It's just the hardest to harness. Um, you know, the advertising is. As maybe precise as they are, you're going to spend some money. And as most part-time podcasters know like money is a scarce commodity, especially when you're juggling so many other things.

[00:24:21] So examples of this, um, disgrace land for, for my, you know, mixed thoughts on the podcast, what the host Jake Brennan does at the end. Is genius in, in really making devoted fans. So what he does, uh, for those of you that aren't aware, he, he reads his favorite, uh, apple podcast reviews on the air. Thanks the reviewer individually.

[00:24:45] He sends out stickers and shirts and posters and Merck, and basically. Has created a community with, for his podcast specifically. Um, so what he's done is, is I don't know his, his listener base, but let's just make it easy and say it's a hundred, he's created a hundred people that are willing to spread the gospel of disgrace land and spread it word of mouth.

[00:25:08] So that hundred gets a new hundred and now it's doubled and so on and so on. Um, so more examples of that of basically fostering a community and creating diehard advocates of your podcasts. Uh, it might be a little bit tricky or work, but at the end of the day, it's free and it'll probably be the most effective over Facebook ads are over, you know, spending your time on if you want to go for a billboard or something

[00:25:33] Brendan: old school.

[00:25:34] Cool. Well, dear listener, if you want to, uh, tell us about how you told your three best friends and a podcast review on apple podcast, you can

[00:25:41] Kevin: check out the link in the show

[00:25:42] Mark: notes. Yeah, absolutely. Please do. Um, I, I, I've still got a soft spot in my heart for, um, Promo exchanges because I feel it's an underused, uh, technique.

[00:25:58] And I think it's one of the best things that maximum fund do from a method of supporting shows. Um, so there are some shows that get the, uh, the ziprecruiter.com ads and then there's other shows like, uh, we got this with mark and Hal, which. Assumed would have actually pulled down more advertising than they do.

[00:26:22] And they almost have no, no actual commercial advertising. Um, and so what they do with their ad time, and, and this is the case with, um, shows like the, uh, like international waters. Um, they do it as well. They have, their ad slots are given over to advertising other podcasts. And to me that's always struck me as.

[00:26:46] Uh, an effective and I think among independent podcasters, massively underused, um, am I over blowing it? You know, what, what, what, what do you

[00:26:56] Kevin: guys think? I think when done correctly, uh, podcast promos, uh, in crossover posts are extremely effective. So some examples, uh, when 20,000 Hertz was featured on 99% of visible the crossover and overlap.

[00:27:12] Basically a Venn diagram of audience interests. There was perfect. So basically 20,000 Hertz has an episode, uh, on the NBC chimes and the origins of those times. And so 99% of visible. Basically featured that podcast. And that's how I first learned of the podcast. I know there's tons out there as well. So I think when done, right, it's extremely effective, but what what's tricky for both podcasts there's is you need to identify somebody with an audience that.

[00:27:43] Has shared interests, but isn't a competitor, um, which, which is a tricky kind of line to navigate.

[00:27:50] Brendan: Yeah. So F for that crossover, you know, that was like, uh, you know, kind of an episode share slash re work of, of the. Episode, um, which obviously in terms of trying to share and share the listener base works incredibly well because of how detailed you get a feel for the episode.

[00:28:15] Um, I think mark was, was more talking about just like adding the 32nd promo at the end of. I have a podcast where you're just saying like, oh, come listen to our podcast. Or we're kind of like this. And we do these things. The quality of the podcast matters. I think the quality of the ad also matters a lot.

[00:28:33] Um, obviously max fund, you know, they have some, um, energy and effort that they can really put into their ads. Um, I also, like, I sometimes like the, uh, Well, I guess what used to be feral audio is now. Um, so

[00:28:49] Mark: go to show Starburns,

[00:28:51] Brendan: sovereigns. Thanks. Um, their, their ads can be re like there's actually, I don't even know the name of the show.

[00:28:58] I guess it's not too, too great of an ad, but this one is a new podcast where they like make up a script for a movie they haven't seen, but that's really popular. Uh, I really enjoy the ads for that, but I haven't actually subscribed to it. Um, so I guess it's not too effective, but the ones that the, uh, podcasts that come in with like this radio spot where they're like is this guy and we're this guy, and we're doing this guy to pump gas

[00:29:26] Kevin: and it's

[00:29:26] Brendan: really annoying.

[00:29:27] And I hate listening to those ads so much. I'm never going to subscribe to anything like that. So, you know, And make, make the podcast ad similar to your show, uh, so that somebody is going to have a good feel for what they're actually going to be listening to. Um, but also. You know, hopefully with, with dynamic ad sharing, insertion type things, or just manually adding it to your own podcast, hopefully it's something that fits the flow of the show proper.

[00:30:01] Uh, and, and that the ad doesn't sound like it's. Coming out of left field because that really throws me off. I'm like, whoa, what am I hearing?

[00:30:09] Kevin: Skip. Yep. Good suggestions. And I can't believe other people still do that. Um, cause I come across them every so often. My guys they're they're jarring because I don't want to use cards commercial in my head.

[00:30:22] Mark: Right. So, um, to, to wrap this up, Kevin to put you on the, to put you on the, uh, the hot seat here. What's the one in the sort of getting things done approach. What's the one next thing that they should do

[00:30:36] Kevin: always is, um, I guess interesting or surprising to me is how many podcasts are, don't do the basic things.

[00:30:44] Um, so that's things like have a website transcribe your podcasts. Um, at the end of the day, we're, we're all going to be slaves to Google. Um, and because, you know, we'll see how it, how it comes, but because audio is an index by Google, meaning your podcast, isn't showing up in the search results, unless you have a lot of text content.

[00:31:05] So just transcribing your podcasts, cleaning them up and posting them, whether it's detailed show notes or full, full audio or full transcriptions. You all automatically have all these words that can be indexed by Google and now you're appearing in search results. So having a website, making sure it's, uh, optimized, um, it's, you're sending your site map to Google to be indexed.

[00:31:28] Um, having social media profiles, updating your website, having a blog. I think 99% invisible does a great job, uh, supplementing their blog content with their podcast. Uh, so, so stealing ideas like that, um, Allow Google and the world to discover your podcasts in the most basic way to, to Google, um, basic interests and have you show up in the search results.

[00:31:54] So things like that and a lot of other, you know, marketing 1 0 1 things, uh, it always irks me when you don't see podcasts, um, actually implement those because they're. I don't know. Um, I'll think of a better analogy later, but, uh, when, when podcasts don't do these basic functions, um, they're, they're making it way harder on themselves in an already tough market.

[00:32:22] Brendan: So we were talking earlier about Gimlet and their, uh, marketing techniques and, and other, uh, That with their new podcasts. And it sounds like they're with a recent announcement and you have an article up on discover pods. Uh they're they're looking to bring some more voices into their, um, into their ranks.

[00:32:42] Uh, Kevin what's, uh, what's going on with the new Goodwin

[00:32:45] Kevin: announcement. Yeah. So, so casting call is, is pegged as a podcast competition to kind of crowdsource their, their new talent acquisition. So under the Gimlet creative. Arm of, of Gimlet media, which is their branded podcasts. Um, together with Squarespace, they're basically searching for, would be podcasters to, to compete in this competition to be judged on by Jonathan Goldstein.

[00:33:13] Uh Nazneen and several other people among the Squarespace. Team, uh, to eventually become their own full fledged Gimlet podcast. Um, so while I have, I have some reservations on it, um, you know, we're kind of glorifying or sensationalizing a podcast search. I think hopefully if all goes well, um, this will thrust, uh, a good hardworking indie podcast and provide them with the resources to become, um, Uh, a great show.

[00:33:44] That's that's part of everybody's daily life. Well, you know,

[00:33:48] Brendan: it's interesting as that TLDR back in, uh, when it was still under, uh, w NYC, that's kinda how they originally came about. There was an internal competition about whatever . New podcast would be. And, uh, Alex and PJ came up with the idea of, of kind of, you know, or, you know, the podcasting about the internet and all that.

[00:34:15] And, uh, they pitched it and they did not win, but eventually just made the podcast. Anyway, I think it's how the story went. And, uh, so it's kind of funny. Um, they're kind of flag, ship podcasts, um, came about from a similar thing that they're trying to do now. And I wonder if that had any, um, had any tie into how that came about.

[00:34:35] I, I kind of like, and don't like the idea at the same time I have, uh, I have a lot of thoughts about American idol and. There the sensationalism of competition and, um, uh, critique, public critique, and, uh, even more so, like, I, I don't know if there's a part of the way that Gimlet works or not, but, um, the contracts that dis.

[00:35:04] The American idol makes their contestant sign. That if, even if they win or if they don't win there, their rights are in, you know, it's just as bad as a record labels rights that taking away from the next 10 years, you have to sing for this certain way and whatnot. And, and you're, you're. Uh, a lot of people are just so starstruck that they sign away anyway, um, to be able to get into the spotlight and they don't, um, they lose out on a lot.

[00:35:34] So I don't, I have no idea if anything like that would happen with the Gimlet stuff, but it just gives me pause and makes me want to read the contract before. Um, I hope hopefully that contestants read the three of the contracts before they, uh, they, they sign up, but I am curious to follow along and see, um, See how that all goes.

[00:35:53] Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I think those are rightful reservations. My, the, probably the, the main critique I have with it is the podcast they're looking for. So in the teaser, Jonathan Goldstein basically said, Uh, the specific podcasts they're looking for and the type of people. And he, he in, you know, in other words says, they're looking for people that are good at conducting interviews and telling nonfiction stories.

[00:36:20] Um, so right, right out of the bat that says, you know, audio drama, sorry, you know, thanks for playing, but we're not looking for you, which, which is kind of a shame, especially given our Sandra critiques, um, But at least they've narrowed their focus so they can have specific guidelines. You know, pitching, uh, audio drama versus some documentary.

[00:36:42] I would

[00:36:44] Mark: be interested to see how it pans out. Um, I, you know, it's, it's not dissimilar to my mind, to what Radiotopia did a couple of years ago, which ended up birthing air hustle. Uh, it's a good point. Yeah. Right. I guess the difference may be with this is that they're looking for. People rather than what Radiotopia we're looking for, which was actual content.

[00:37:08] They, they, they wanted people to pitch actual shows. Um, but you know that there is precedent for that. So are they, so presumably then this is going to be a podcast in

[00:37:20] Kevin: itself. Yeah. Yeah. Casting calls a podcast in itself and their search is going to be documented. Interesting.

[00:37:25] Mark: Yeah. I find, I find the choice of Jonathan Goldstein to be interesting.

[00:37:29] Um, he's got such a unique voice that. Plays really well with, with a, a show like a heavyweight, um, because it's so very much him and he has a very specific, um, style, uh, and, and, and kind of sardonic and, and sometimes self-referential, and, uh, it'll be interesting to see how that actually works in, in this kind of more, what could potentially be a slightly more glossy format.

[00:38:02] Uh, that, that seems, yeah, that seems an interesting one.

[00:38:14] Brendan: So Kevin, you write for discovered box.com. You created that awesome blog for people to discover more podcasts. So obviously sitting down with a, um, a podcaster and interviewing them that, I mean, that's a certain narrative and it has a certain drive. Material to work on when you are conversely, when you were just like reviewing a podcast that you're listening to, like how much of the podcasts do you listen to?

[00:38:41] How much do you have to have it get into your head? What's what's the process

[00:38:44] Kevin: like? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, again, I, I guess, uh, the easy answer is it depends, it depends how many episodes you need to listen to, to fully grasp it. Um, at the end of the day, It's what I like and what I don't like for any podcasts is kind of what comes out in my writing.

[00:39:01] Um, if people I'm just kind of assuming people have similar gripes or interests. Um, and so when they read my reviews or my recommendations, um, they're either nodding along or, or kind of questioning my tastes, which is, which is perfectly fine. Everybody's. Everybody has their own interests. Um, but at the end of the day, it's just being genuine.

[00:39:23] It's like, here's what I really like about this podcast. Here's what I really don't like. Um, and just being honest with, with my thoughts about any specific podcasts, I think that that honesty and that genuineness. Hopefully it comes across and, uh, makes for a good review.

[00:39:40] Brendan: Well, I think it does. And dear listener, if you want to go check out, uh, Kevin's reviews of different podcasts and interviews with podcasters and go to discover ponds.com and check it out, we'll have links in the show notes.