Mining the data of podcasts

[00:00:00] Brendan: It's time to starch. This is The Eye, a podcast about potato culture. As always, we'll start with potato salad or not? Mark, last weekend, you prepared potatoes with buttered leaks and bacon. There was some controversy on the Twitters. Was that a potato salad?

[00:00:14] Mark: It went to my parents, which was, uh, the, the purpose for said potato salad. And, uh, I told them that I didn't have any spring onion or as. Uh, in the Irish fraternity, call them scallions and the, the response back was negative. However, they very much enjoyed the potato salad and continued to refer to it as a potato salad. So I submit to you that it is possible to have a potato salad with buttered leaks substituted for scallions.

[00:00:43] Thank you.

[00:00:50] Inside jokes inside jokes, they're jokes on the inside.

[00:00:55] Brendan: Hello, Mark Steadman.

[00:00:57] Mark: Oh Hello, Brendan Hutchins.

[00:00:59] Brendan: Welcome, thank you so much, Bradley for joining us.

[00:01:01] Bradley: Hello, hello, hello. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:04] Brendan: This is Bradley from pod chaser.com. The Internet's. Podcast review site. We first want to start off with, um, previous podcast that we've recommended from mark to become his new favorite podcast.

[00:01:16] Mark, have you listened to any of the previous recommendations that we've sent your way?

[00:01:21] Mark: Two out of the three? Um, so I completely missed conversations with people who had. Okay. Um, just because I never got round to it, uh, dissect, I listened to the first two episodes because I wanted to sort of, um, give it, give it a bit of it's ju uh, and I found it a really, really interesting listen, I don't want to go into the specifics and the vagaries of hip hop itself.

[00:01:50] I thought the, I think what it does, which is great for people like me, who. I would like to enjoy some of this music, but don't necessarily get, because certainly the album that he was talking about in the first season to pimp a butterfly is very artistic and very. It's a concept album and, and there's a, there's a lot of context behind that.

[00:02:09] And that's certainly something that I would have missed when I put on Spotify years ago and thought, wow, this I, like, I knew that it wasn't as simple as I don't like this. I knew there was stuff that I wasn't getting. And so I think what I like about that, uh, that podcast is it gives a lot of that context and, and it was really interesting.

[00:02:25] So I, yeah, I really, really appreciated it. Um, And Doug, Doug loves movies funny in it. Yeah. There's not much

[00:02:31] Brendan: to say. It's just fun. Funny show. I also listened to, I listened to the first episode of dissect and I hadn't listened to that yet. Um, I agree with, with your review there, it is very well considered and put together.

[00:02:44] Um, it wasn't for me. I like music. I like music review podcasts. Um, And I'd like deep dives into things, but the actual music that he was reviewing just did nothing for me. It didn't move me in any way. Um, and maybe I need to listen to the whole series to maybe have it moved me, but it just, it didn't pull me in at all.

[00:03:06] So I did not continue. Uh, Bradley, have you listened to dissect or do you have a, a recommendation for mark of what should be his next favorite?

[00:03:15] Bradley: I barely know you mark. So I really, what do you, what do you need in a podcast

[00:03:22] Mark: today? No one's ever asked me that

[00:03:26] Bradley: I don't really like comedy, um, hardly at all. I, uh, I do like, I do enjoy the fellows.

[00:03:36] Um, I. Really started enjoying them. Um, have you, have you listened to work life with Adam Grant? Okay. So a little, a little on the same vein as, as reply all just that it's, it's interesting and kind of tech II, but really it's a, it's an organizational psychologist who, who evaluates different teams across the world and a high high-performers like astronauts and figures out how they work.

[00:04:07] And it's a kind of different take on the, the really, really, really, really like tired entrepreneurs, startup kind of podcasts because I'm getting really sick all of them. So it's a refreshing new take from a psychological. Perspective. That's my only recommendation for you. I really, I really don't. Um, I don't like comedy that much, so I really, I really can't help you very

[00:04:31] Mark: much at all.

[00:04:32] I think having listened to, um, probably Merlin Mann has possibly poisoned me on comedy, um, because I think things that are labeled as comedy. Uh, I actually kind of steer quite clear of certainly when something is self-reported as comedy, that more and more, it just is like, that's not for you to decide,

[00:04:52] Bradley: has gotten.

[00:04:52] So, uh, it's, it's really difficult. If, if you're aware that you're funny, then you're really not funny.

[00:04:59] Brendan: Yeah. Mark, I have a recommendation for you. Have you heard of the fall of the house of sunshine?

[00:05:05] Mark: No, sir.

[00:05:06] Brendan: It's a musical. Oh, it's, it's a comedy. Uh, so are you familiar with Dr. Horrible sing along

[00:05:12] Mark: blog? Uh, I I'm familiar in as much as I know.

[00:05:15] It's a thing.

[00:05:15] Bradley: Isn't that? What does first let's adjust Sweden. And, uh, what's

[00:05:19] Brendan: his name?

[00:05:25] No.

[00:05:29] Yeah. Yeah, that, that, that was, that was, uh, one of my favorite musical events. Um, are you familiar with repo the genetic opera again,

[00:05:37] Mark: heard of not saying, okay. Are you

[00:05:39] Brendan: familiar with Greg? The bunny, Greg? The money is a TV show with Seth green and a bunch of other comedians. Um, and it's about puppets and stuff.

[00:05:48] The fall of the house is unsure. I see. As a, as a. Uh, really weird podcast version of Dr. Horrible sing-along blog meets Draper, the genetic opera meets Greg, the bunny set on a kid's TV show about dentistry.

[00:06:03] Mark: Ooh, that's deep. Yeah, there, there there's that coast. So that's a few layers. Okay. There's a ton

[00:06:09] Brendan: of dentist and teeth jokes.

[00:06:11] I like they have all the different terms that they use for, um, for, for jokes. And it's quite hilarious. There, like it starts off with a murder and then, so there's an investigation. And then, um, but it's not like a, a chew kind parody. It's it's, you're just following this, this guy. Who's China. It's just the plot device.

[00:06:32] It's uh, it goes in so many weird directions. I'm only on like episodes. And there's, there's a huge backlog of episodes.

[00:06:53] I have no idea how, like they produce this show because it is really good quality. The music numbers are amazing. Uh, they, they go through tons of different styles of music. Performed and recorded and produced really well. Some of the, um, they do some style parodies, um, and they have like a Veruca salt parody and they have like, um, just a whole, a whole range of.

[00:07:22] Like styles that they kinda it's just it's it's I just laugh out loud and I'm like, just shaking my head with my mouth. And Gabe is like, what the heck is happening here. So it's,

[00:07:33] Mark: uh, I officially can't wait.

[00:07:35] Brendan: Awesome. Awesome. Um, I look forward to hearing back. Yes.

[00:07:38] Mark: I'm very excited. Okay, fantastic. So PocketCasts got, um, got.

[00:07:45] Yeah, they

[00:07:45] Brendan: were snatched up by a NPR

[00:07:46] Mark: consortium. What do we think? What do we think this means? Are we going to see changes? Is the app going to become free? Uh, is the NPR app going to move over to, uh, to this? What, what, what are our thoughts team? I'm in the

[00:07:59] Brendan: opinion that nothing's going to change, at least for the foreseeable future.

[00:08:04] I know that there was a theory that there they were going to, uh, the, the MPR consortium was going to use that acquisition in order to apply rad R a D a, which is like a tracking, um, not software, but the tracking, um, protocol, I

[00:08:20] Mark: guess he'd say to call will be the

[00:08:23] Brendan: right word so they could, um, more easily understand what people are doing.

[00:08:27] Like, uh, when they play pause, when they subscribe, when they, um, skip an ad that kind of. And I don't like the thought of that. Um, I don't know. I mean, on one hand, I don't know if it really, even if to Casserly hasn't a large enough user base for that to get good results. And cause I saw somewhere that, uh, that the, the user base was actually pretty small.

[00:08:55] But yeah, it definitely makes me not want to use the app. Actually. I actually deleted it. Like I don't even use it anymore. I hadn't used it a long time and I just

[00:09:02] Bradley: deleted it cause I'm like, well, you're, you're an overcast user, right? Absolutely. They heard I'm an Android user. So I don't have, I use pocket casts.

[00:09:10] I don't understand, uh, the uproar really. I, I, I disagree about the pricing. I think, I think that, uh, NPR certainly wants its own little distribution channel, uh, which makes sense. And. Pocket castle become free. Um, I can see that. I think it should, I think it should become free. I could be wrong. Uh, the founder has been pretty darn, uh, from about nothing changing, which is I think a good thing for the, for the user base overall.

[00:09:39] So I'm really happy for him. Um, I certainly think that, you know, they're, they're gonna, I assume NPR will get access to statistics, um, and data because even without rad, The player app, we'll have a lot of those, a lot of that data that they're looking for in a 3% sample sizes is pretty good to kind of make some, some extrapolations and figure some stuff out.

[00:10:06] So, uh, I think it's like a thing maybe, or, or maybe it's a terrible thing. I don't know.

[00:10:15] Brendan: I mean that data. Okay. But it's going to, it's going to like four different, uh, public radio companies. No, that's that's cool. So they can use that, um, that 3% knowledge, but then it's not open. It's not, it's not available to write to everyone.

[00:10:32] So, you know, they may use that to their advantage in a sense it's business, world capitalism. I'm also, I'm firmly against capitalism. I was talking about this yesterday. So, uh,

[00:10:41] Bradley: my opinion is that, uh, that I think this is a good move for NPR. Um, and, and maybe a bad move for the, the. The openness of, of a protocol like rad.

[00:10:54] Um, so what why guess I guess we'll find out. I think, I think that the more data and statistics, we all get the better, the space will become. So hopefully it's not a move to wall off that 3% of that data and keep it for themselves. That doesn't seem like their type of way of doing this. Since there are public radio consortium, but we'll see.

[00:11:16] Yeah. Having

[00:11:17] Mark: been involved in building a project, uh, mainly, uh, last year and a bit into this year, that was, um, trying to reinvent some of the protocols and some of the thinking, um, around, uh, podcasting and, uh, build a new open protocol. Um, one of the things that, that I wanted to build in from the get-go was, um, more useful analytics.

[00:11:42] But making it anonymized. Um, so yes. Uh, you know, you could, you could tell one person from another, which is that's really the, the, the holy grail. If you can accurately tell one person from another, it doesn't mean that you can tell who that person is. Right. It just means that a person isn't confused with B person and that's, that's, that's.

[00:12:02] And that's still anonymous. Um, and so, you know, there are, there are ways to do that using, um, using apps because an app can give you some form of hashed ID field that is unique to that person, but doesn't identify them. And then you get to choose whether you want that. Identity that if you like a passport, do you want that to be passed around other podcasts?

[00:12:23] Or do you want to have a new ID for each podcast? Uh, so that you're not identified across different podcasts. And that was part of what we were building into the protocol. Um, and the whole point of this was to be able to give more accurate information, uh, to podcasts. Isn't it? I know, not everyone agrees.

[00:12:40] And you know, you listen to ATP and Marco will, will, will talk at great lengths to this. And I understand it from his point of view, especially from an apple point of view. Um, yeah, that is, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's that thing of, you know, apple, you buy the device, they don't need to, you know, that they're expensive.

[00:12:58] They don't need to then, uh, Make it cheaper by, by selling your, your data. Um, and I think some app developers have the, have the same viewpoint. And I think mark is definitely one of them. And so while I like, I support. Point of view. I think podcast is, can make better shows when they know more about their listeners, um, on aggregate and that can be done in a totally non-invasive way.

[00:13:23] Um, you know, our, our pulse gets very elevated when we talk about. Privacy. Um, certainly, you know, in, in the last few months, it's, it's getting more and more so, but I think we have to not be quite so shrill about it. And, and I think we can be sensible and say, there are ways to report this information and it's not all about.

[00:13:42] Um, it's not always about what ads are being skipped or whatever. It might just be, you know, you take a program like this and we might find out that, oh, well it turns out that no one listens to the segment where we try and find Mark's new favorite podcasts. Yeah, exactly. Or, you know, we make it a bonus feature or something like that or whatever.

[00:14:04] And, uh, you know, we, we don't have ads. But, but that information can still be really interesting. Um, yeah. And, and it's, you know, also just knowing that someone has actually listened to an episode and not just downloaded it.

[00:14:20] Bradley: It's amazing. It's amazing. Oh, my gosh. It's crazy.

[00:14:25] Mark: It is. It absolutely is. And as someone who runs a platform and, and who would like to be able to, to, you know, give people information about how long they've listened, uh, and, and you know, how many bills actually have listened versus downloaded, that kind of information is, is really, really valuable.

[00:14:41] And so I absolutely support a mechanism that allows that to be

[00:14:44] Bradley: reported. I think, I think you can't really say. Boy, I wish discovery were better. Or boy, I wish, uh, the perfect podcasts were presented to me. Every time I opened my app and. And the same breath say, like, I don't want, but we're not going to tell you anything about, yeah.

[00:14:59] You can't notice anything about me or anything. I listened to that. That, wasn't what

[00:15:03] Brendan: it

[00:15:03] Bradley: sounded like. I was trying to say, well, that does certainly seem like they're, there's a camp that says that and it's like, what are you? Are you crazy? You have to have.

[00:15:14] Brendan: I have very complicated thoughts as I do with almost everything.

[00:15:17] Like when I want all the data I can possibly get about what I'm doing. I want to know how many hours I've listened to. I like, I envy the pocket casts, uh, self data. Like the only data that I get from overcast is how many hours I've saved with Smartspeed, which is a fun thing. But it's not like I'm curious, like how much, how much time I actually spent listening today and that kind of stuff.

[00:15:37] But I, and I do like, I want to be able to provide data. On my listening habits, uh, to, to, um, and anyone who really cares about it. Like I share it online all the time, uh, publicly. Um, but I want to be able to know what's being shared and how it's being used. So it's yeah,

[00:15:59] Mark: I, once I really want a, um, a podcast app that is part podcast, app, um, part podcatcher and part sort of social network.

[00:16:11] I want to be able to. Get a feed of, you know, a tab for my podcasts and then a tub for the podcasts that my friends are listening to. And to be able to actually comment on something and have that little stream of commenting, like a like on Instagram, like I sort of don't really understand why that doesn't exist yet for us.

[00:16:31] Brendan: Oh, yeah, I did not like break her. Oh boy, this is the thing

[00:16:34] Mark: I think, I think I tried using chorus and, uh,

[00:16:38] Bradley: um, just get, give me a, give me six months, mark. All right. We're going to have user profiles. We're going to have custom lists, discussion boards, uh, carpeting. You're gonna be able to follow each other.

[00:16:50] So get, just give me some, give me some time you're talking about updates to

[00:16:53] Brendan: pat Texas. Of course.

[00:16:55] Mark: Yeah. No, absolutely. And, and like, I will be so onboard. Um, yes, because I, I, you know, I love what, um, and I, I don't check in with Podcode. But I, um, when I do I look at it and I go, that's so close to what, like absolutely what I want.

[00:17:13] Brendan: It's almost always almost every time I take it.

[00:17:17] Mark: I know you don't have infinite, infinite funds, but I want the app. I want the app on my phone because. I, I, you know, I love, I love pocket casts. Sorry. I love, um, overcast. I like pocket casts as well. I love overcast because, um, there are, you know, really, really good features in there, but I ain't that loyal.

[00:17:35] You know what I mean? I like, I will, I will switch. I will switch to an app that. Oh, I think a good deal. More social because listeners are social beings and getting a really simple and easy way to share that kind of information, uh, to, to, to share what we're listening to, to share what with enjoyed like that is that's big and it can still be built on open protocols.

[00:18:02] Brendan: I obviously I host with too many podcasts, um, and I can see, you know, the, the data of, of. Th th the download DeMars and the streams, and, you know, it's, it's, it's limited. Everybody knows that the podcast, um, analytics are limited because you can only see so much, but I also have a mailing list through MailChimp and holy crap, they give you a lot of

[00:18:25] Bradley: data.

[00:18:26] Uh, so good. I love it.

[00:18:28] Brendan: I know. I'd like, it's, it's, it's manipulating my mind. Like, I, I didn't know that I wanted to see all this data for podcasts until I realized. Oh, wow. Not only can I see how many people have opened my, um, my email, how many people have clicked around on things, but I can see who clicked on which link.

[00:18:47] In, oh man, it's so much detailed that I'm like, should I have all this detailed? Do I, should I know which of my friends are, yes. I know. It's so creepy on this end. Like, like, and then I would think about like how many I'm subscribed to, I don't know how many dozens of newsletters and I'm like, oh, okay. I'm giving them all this data.

[00:19:08] And they're looking at it like, oh, Brendan clicked on this and these, and just didn't that. Oh, boy, it's a

[00:19:13] Bradley: mind trip. It's just a good point though, that email an ancient technology, uh, has evolved, uh, with, with the modern times. And we can see any time somebody opened something and, and almost in real time.

[00:19:28] And it's, it's. This needs to happen for podcasts with

[00:19:31] Brendan: all the spam email and everything they would get. Is that a good thing? Is it a good thing that we it's evolved to include so much data? Uh,

[00:19:37] Bradley: absolutely. Yes.

[00:19:39] Mark: Yeah. I think I trust, I trust MailChimp and one of the reasons that I. My favorite email newsletters to get are the ones that come from MailChimp, because one of my favorite things to do, which is so passive aggressive.

[00:19:51] So me is when I get an email that's come through from a mailing list on MailChimp. And I can't remember ever having signed up to this ever having ticked a box that says it's okay for you to email me your marketing email. I love. Being able to tick the box that says, I didn't sign up for this email. I don't necessarily tick the spam one, but I always do tick.

[00:20:13] You know, when I come to unsubscribe, I say, I never signed up for this email. And that's one of the reasons I trust MailChimp because they give us that option. I think they do actually go a good way to, uh, towards, um, letting people back out when they don't want to receive that, that stuff. It does make me think that I don't mind because I'm not one of these people who, who really worries that much about privacy in as much as so much of this data is in aggregate.

[00:20:39] No, one's actually looked like I had this conversation with someone about Alexa. Um, and, uh, so, you know, they were saying, I don't want a box listening to me. And I'm like, I had to say, none of us is that interesting that there is someone listening to what we're saying. It doesn't like, it, it doesn't work like that in aggregate that information is very different, but.

[00:20:58] Yeah. So I I'm, I'm all for that. And I know not everyone is, but I think the reasons that people say they're against that stuff are they tend to be a bit knee jerky because they're not really thinking about what that data actually means, even to a degree, you know, Google once upon a time, having the ability to read your email, um, so that they can serve ads against it doesn't mean that there's a physical person reading your actual email.

[00:21:25] It's a computer. It doesn't know you are the person that you are in, where you live and the uncertain

[00:21:32] Brendan: in the future robots will be treated as Siemens. Oh no.

[00:21:35] Bradley: Did you see that? Did you see the, uh, Google IO clip yesterday with the, uh, oh my, the assistant call it calling the restaurant. Oh my gosh,

[00:21:45] Mark: the restaurant

[00:21:45] Bradley: and the haircut.

[00:21:46] That was a jaw-dropping moment and shows like what, what, where we're headed and how. Exciting, but terrifying. It is. I didn't,

[00:21:53] Brendan: I didn't listen to it, but I, uh, I did

[00:21:55] Bradley: hear about it. You you've got to listen to it. It's so convincing. It's so if somebody were to call me, if that happened to me, I would have completely fallen for it.

[00:22:03] I would've thought, oh, this is just the person. Oh my gosh. Oh, I'll also about. Concerning Alexa, I have a hot tape. I think that smart speakers are great. I think that smart speakers and podcasts don't belong together. And I don't understand the push. I just don't get it. Can you guys explain that to me? Or, or what do

[00:22:25] Mark: you think you can have a go, uh, And I wash up.

[00:22:32] Okay. Okay. And so I put the podcast. Yeah. So put the podcast on and it's great. I usually do it via Bluetooth. Um, what I want is, again, I want the app that is cross platform that knows what podcasts I've listened to so that I can say in this cause one of the things I love and it's all, because it's part of the, you know, as an ecosystem is I can say, Hey lady, Anna can continue reading my audio.

[00:22:56] Right. And it knows what book I was listening to and it picks up exactly where it left off. I could have been listening on my phone, um, and it will just go. Continuing the audio book and we carry on and I do my dishes or I cook. And then I say a lady in a can stop. I want to be able to say, um, continue to listen to my podcast.

[00:23:14] And it just plays the, you know, continues playing the one I was listening to and then go to the next, in my queue and that kind of stuff I think, uh, would be wonderful and is, is so within our grasp, as something we can do as is so much with this, uh, with, with the entire industry, it is all stuff that we can do with.

[00:23:32] Doing it yet because no, one's finding the money to make it happen. I think no. One's finding that the money, the

[00:23:40] Bradley: money is the money is certainly coming. Um, and I think this year and next year going to be super exciting for, for podcast tech, um, that people are finally figuring out like, oh, this is interesting.

[00:23:51] This is, this is changing the world. The money has coming, baby. That's right. Brendan capitalism is going to make your, your favorite thing in your life. Much, much better.

[00:24:08] Brendan: So, yeah, we were talking about different. Uh, we were talking about updates to podcast apps, and specifically to punch chaser about incorporating more, um, more features and everything to better serve the podcast listener. Uh, so what's, what's upcoming for patch Dexter. What's what's in the pipeline. What can we look forward to?

[00:24:28] What's what's happening now?

[00:24:29] Bradley: Um, we, we are finishing our fundraising round, so we, we, uh, we did it a long time, bootstrapping it and doing it, you know, nights and weekends. And then we realized like, Hey, uh, to really grow this and to get these features out so that our users don't kill us. Uh, we need, we need to be doing this.

[00:24:51] And so we went out and, uh, I'm from Kentucky. So, uh, it's a little difficult to raise money, but we figured it out. And so we have, we actually next week, um, we'll be done with our, with our round, which is super exciting. And so we already have. Oh 1, 2, 3, like three developers onboard contractors. And then, um, the team is, is all transitioning to full-time.

[00:25:18] Call is full-time. And so you're going to see a lot more features coming out at a much quicker pace. So that's super exciting. The first thing that's coming out is, uh, a custom lists. Um, which we're really excited about, uh, very similar to, you know, good reads letterboxed where you can create, uh, an episode or podcasts list and you can annotate it at sections, share it on a platform who will be integrating with, uh, radio, public and player FM.

[00:25:51] So you can easily open them within your favorite player app. And those integrations will come, um, to other apps as well, uh, in the future. So. It's just, uh, like, like mark said, you know, having a kind of cross-platform solution to, to sharing it's to be able to easily hit one button and have that list go on Twitter is our goal.

[00:26:13] And, uh, it is great. I think. You're really gonna like it. Um, should it be coming out, uh, the end of this month? And so that's amazing. That's exciting. And then our people feature is coming out right after that. Oh, finally,

[00:26:28] Brendan: I was like the, the

[00:26:29] Bradley: original thing that was super excited. Yes. The people features coming.

[00:26:33] Uh, we, you will be seeing a landing page soon so that you can start putting in, you know, I'm Mark Steadman and I host this podcast in this podcast. Hello. And we're going to start collecting. Early on so that we can sell it to Russia. And then we'll be at podcast movement and we'll have a booth and we'll have a little kiosks to where you can get a professional headshot, and also input your, your, like your name.

[00:27:00] And you'll be, you'll be you'll shot. You'll shoot straight to the pod chaser page. So. Yeah, those are the two main things coming soon as lists and people, and, um, we're super jazzed. So size, so exciting. Finally happy.

[00:27:15] Brendan: So punches are, is built around ratings and reviews and having that public online, putting your name out there and giving that data to the world to use as they please what's.

[00:27:27] Uh, what are the ethics around reading and reviewing podcasts? What do we, what do we think? Um, giving, giving some of these hard work, uh, a two-star rating and just dropping it and leaving. All right.

[00:27:40] Bradley: Here's my spiel. Um, as it stands currently, you can, you're not, you know, if you make an account with, with Google or you can make an account with an email address, so you can, you can have an anonymous review.

[00:27:55] Uh, you still have an account, but it can be anonymous essentially. My opinion on anonymous reviews. I, I think actually people tend to behave better if their little faces on the, on the review. And I, I tend to prefer that by also understand. I also understand Brendan, I don't know if mark came out with a, an episode and it was just absolute trash and that this would ever happen.

[00:28:21] And you, you want to say like, Hey man, like I think that's a three-star maybe you don't want Brendan Hutchins next to it. Maybe you want to get him that, that feedback. Anyway. Now of course, since you're friends, you probably would, would text him and be like, mark, that episode was trash.

[00:28:34] Mark: So stunk. I completely support that.

[00:28:37] Um, because there are, there are podcasts that I listened to that I support and I might want to be able to say, Hey, you always say this. And it really, really irritates me because. Irritating and dumb. I wish you'd stop saying that, but what the, the, the bit that isn't unsaid is how much I actually really liked the show, but because this thing irritates me, I want to be able to mark it down and, and, you know, I'm still a Patrion supporter or whatever.

[00:29:01] Um, and so like, I absolutely do see the value in being able

[00:29:06] Bradley: to do that. And I do think that, so of course, uh, with a five-star system, you tend to be skewed to the five-star end and the one-star. Um, as, as it stands, pod chaser, we've been pretty pleased with the we've had a pretty equal distribution. And so we, we don't see of course, every single podcast or claims or page and rates every episode, a five star as Susan make an account and that's okay.

[00:29:30] And that will kind of fix itself in the long run. So, um, you know, I understand some people don't like the five star system, I think for me and for, for pocket. Th the way we envision it is that the star gives you a very, very quick indication of okay. Yes or, okay. No. And then I think reviews are much, much more helpful and yeah, really, you know, like mark, you could give something three stars to like, man, that, that person just kept sneezing the entire podcast, but it was a great podcast and I probably would still listen to it even though they're sneezing the whole time.

[00:30:06] So I think that, um, I think review. On the episode level, especially are incredibly valuable. And I know that as a consumer, personally, if I'm to buy something on Amazon, I actually enjoy reading reviews more than I more than I like the product a lot of times. So, uh, the hunt is, is, is a lot of fun and it can be a lot of fun.

[00:30:25] Yeah. I definitely agree

[00:30:26] Brendan: that the reviews for an episode are more helpful than a review for, I mean, I'm sorry. The rating for an episode is more helpful than a rating for the whole podcast, because that can be.

[00:30:38] Bradley: Um, blanket podcast, really the accurate shape changes year to year, it gets better and worse. It fluctuates for

[00:30:45] Brendan: sure.

[00:30:45] If I had just said at the top of the show, uh, Hey mark, listen to the fall of the house, to the sunshine four and a half stars. Like there is nothing, you know, that this doesn't have the same thing, but because I went into all this detail and gave a review more or less, uh, right. That you know now he's excited.

[00:31:02] Do you have thoughts, mark? Do you have. Uh, podcasts online.

[00:31:06] Mark: I'm really bad at this. Um, so I have done, um, but because I'm not because I don't use the apple podcasts app, like I have absolutely sympathy with people because, uh, you know, the, the, the place where until podcaster conquers the world, the place where this sort of.

[00:31:24] Has an impact would, you know, certainly the wisdom is that it is on the apple podcasts site. Um, and the fact is only iOS users can do that. Uh, or only people who have the, uh, iTunes app can do that. And that's probably going to get harder because I think iTunes is going to spit out at some point and it's going to be a whole different thing.

[00:31:44] Um, and so like, It's actually really hard. W I think we said this last week or the week before, it's actually really hard to review a podcast. Um, it's not easy. There's so many hoops you gotta jump through. Um, and so I think. That's why I, you know, I'm lazy and I want the, the same app that I'm listening to a podcast.

[00:32:06] And I want to be able to just open that up. And even like, I liked the idea of, I think SoundCloud does this way. You can just tap a heart, um, or, you know, like the medium thing where you can clap. Being able to say, you know, something good just happened. I want to just tap that, um, as it were, um, apps to top that up,

[00:32:30] um, or, you know, get to the end and there be what would be okay. I'm now just writing, um, uh, proposals for apps I'm never going to build. Um, but someone else well is what will be super cool. I get to the end of listening to a podcast. And, um, it goes into a little queue, a little like, um, the, the, the, the name of the episode goes into a little thing that says, Hey, what did you think about this?

[00:32:58] And I can take one of two actions. I can just swipe it away. Or I can say, you know, like the, the Uber driver thing, like, I can just give it a quick rating and then put some comments in and it could just be one short sentence. Um, You know, a really interesting story or, uh, hated the guest, but, or, you know, or really loved the guests.

[00:33:17] But the host irritates me though, you know, those little kind of things, one sentence bang done, and then it's off the list that I think that kind of stuff for, for those that are real, uh, not necessarily super listeners, but those who are sort of the, the more discerning listeners, those are the opinions that really can, can move or shake because.

[00:33:39] Those, you know, those, those are to a degree, the people you want to target, but also those tastemakers to a degree. And so theirs, their opinions might matter in trickle down to the people who don't necessarily do that stuff. And the only way that that's really going to happen as you make it super, super, super easy.

[00:33:54] And I think when that happens, whether it's chorus or the, the official pod chase app, um, coming soon to my dreams, um, is when, when that happens, that will be, I think, uh, Uh, game-changer, I'm gonna have to say it. Yeah.

[00:34:10] Brendan: I think

[00:34:10] Bradley: it will change the game. Our strategy is, is, um, I'm not just saying this cause you, cause you said it, but is, is there a similar there there's not only, there's a problem and accessibility to doing the rating and review, but there's also a problem of just remembering to do it.

[00:34:26] So it's gotta be tied to the listening experience. And we agree with that. And so that's why Paul chasers strategy. And, um, I can't say a whole lot, but we are integrating with, with different player apps so that you might see pod chasers, little, you know, rotten tomato kind of indicator, uh, and more than one app in the future.

[00:34:49] So that, that's the, that's the idea so that when you're done, when you're 75% through or a hundred percent. Uh, you get a little, a pretty little modal that says, how'd you like that

[00:34:58] Mark: episode? My little request is cause you'll never, I don't see anyone ever getting Marco to integrate with anything. So get it, get it into Castro because for me Castro's the next best app to, um, to, uh, to, to overcast.

[00:35:12] I really like Castro. So getting, getting Castro, I know it's absolutely your decision and you can control that. It's nothing to do with the other apps. So yeah. You know, just push your button into the other rapids.

[00:35:22] Bradley: Oh Castro. If you're listening, please send me an email.

[00:35:26] Brendan: I completely understand the assumption that would never happen with overcast.

[00:35:32] I listened to HCP and everything else that Marco does, and I know his firm's stance on he doesn't like ratings and reviews. He doesn't like, uh, opening it. Isn't like third parties integrating with this. He, he wants to be his own silo and I completely get that. And so I've been as, as a diehard overcast user because I love the speed and audio quality.

[00:35:53] Um, I haven't given it a lot of thought on how I could possibly have my two loves of overcast and conscious are working together

[00:36:00] Bradley: like a, our whole, our whole thing is yes, we would love to do that. We would love to. Um, that's that's our whole goal is, is to be, have her tentacles, you know, all over the space and have anybody who wants to use it, can use it.

[00:36:14] So, yeah, that's, that's absolutely doable. And, uh, Marco, I know that I've tried to get ahold of you, but. Email me. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to work with you in any, in any capacity.

[00:36:29] Mark: Yeah. I think this might be a wrong and be an unpopular stance. So I'll, I'll temper that, but I think those kinds of opinions that are held by the likes of Marco are very easy to be held when you are, um, very secure in your audience.

[00:36:44] And you, you know, that you've got people who will listen to everything you put out. It's very, very easy to be siloed when you know that people. Eddie and your space, people are already buying your pins and your t-shirts. And you know, when you, when you recommend a bag, you know, people will use your affiliate code w w whatever.

[00:37:02] Um, yeah. And, and so I think that what that comes off as is a degree of complacency, um, and I think the rest that, you know, it's, it's the, that's really the, that's the little bit of the shark's fin that's poking out of the water, but there's a great fricking big shark under the. Um, that that is made up of the rest of the world.

[00:37:22] That would actually also quite liked someone to just go, Hey, I enjoyed that episode.

[00:37:31] Brendan: Hey, Bradley, are podcasts sustainable? Are they sustainable by the ad model? Like should podcasting be free to the end user? You have 60 seconds go.

[00:37:42] Bradley: Okay. I think that the ad model is sustainable for the top 100. Uh, podcasts, I think for the, uh, for the rest of the world, ads are not sustainable. And until you remove the person in the way, who is the ad company or person serving the ads and go to a direct. I think that, uh, people aren't going to make real money on podcasts until that happens.

[00:38:09] So I don't, I don't think there's any reason podcasts should be free forever. I think that they should always have a free option, but, uh, what is marketing to me is the ability to directly pay the podcaster, um, in mass with, with one unifying system of software. So that's my take.

[00:38:40] Mark: Uh, I think it's, it's probably that, that we, uh, we have to

[00:38:45] Bradley: say our good bikes, so sad. There's so there's so much more, this is so sad,

[00:38:49] Mark: guys. So much more to disagreeing on. Yeah.

[00:38:52] Brendan: Tell the internet how to find you. If they, if you want them to find you

[00:38:56] Bradley: on, you can email me. I'm Bradley upon chaser.com. You can find me on Twitter.

[00:39:00] I. E Bradley Davis, which is Bradley Davis with an E before the B and the R. Or follow us on at pod chaser or go to dot com. Make an account, leave all the race reviews in the world, please, please.