Podcasting's darkest timeline

[00:00:00] Brendan: You created a monster because nobody wants to see Marshall Memorial. They want Chevy. I'm sure. And if you want shady, this is, but I'll get you a little bit of weed and missile, some hard, like, cause some FATCA that attempts to hurt your heart quicker than the sharks that Madonna.

[00:00:19] Mark: For what feels like it might be the last time, but I hope isn't the last time. Hello, Brandon Hudgins of the podcast advocate network. Hey Mark Steadman. The podium. We can, we can do this. We can do this. We've had, we've had, you know, um, nearly 20 episodes or is it more of practice?

[00:00:43] Brendan: Yeah, I'm not sure what. Well, yeah, and, and each episode I've had multiple times of practice. It's just the listeners to know about that.

[00:00:49] Mark: We're just not good at it. That's that's what we found out. We're just not good at starting podcasts. Correct.

[00:00:55] Brendan: We're pretty good at ending them.

[00:00:56] Mark: Yeah. So, I mean, it's not, it's not sort of the point of where we're going here.

[00:01:00] Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, we haven't made it to 20 episodes. Even with

[00:01:06] Brendan: this, given this,

[00:01:07] Mark: we will have, we will have, we'll have just made 20. Um, so well done to us. Good for Olympic. If anything.

[00:01:21] Brendan: Uh, listeners I'm buying my first house. Uh, I am super excited. Uh, the, the property includes two sheds, one for woodworking, which is like my, my main profession. And one, that's just an empty blank slate shed, which I'm going to turn into a recording studio and I am super f-ing excited. Um, and so I've been making a list in my notes on what I want to do to the house and the sheds and, uh, One of them includes getting a big recording light, um, and to have to Mount on the outside that a red light will show that I'm I'm recording when I am and all that.

[00:02:02] Exactly. And then also, um, a smart lock, uh, that I can both hook up to a series shortcut and say, Hey, Siri recording. And oh, no.

[00:02:13] Mark: No, no, no. Siri, I'm not recording if that's okay.

[00:02:16] Brendan: And, uh, and have it turned on the light and locked the door and, uh, maybe dim the lights or I don't know, something, something else, fun like that.

[00:02:24] And so it just remind me that I'm so excited, so excited.

[00:02:30] Mark: So as I think, uh, on the conversations we've had and think about the. The podcasts that I've been talking about and the inspiration that I've drawn from the chats that we've had. I don't know how much we got into it, um, in, in previous episodes, but w I think we've both come to points with projects that we started before this, uh, many series and have now sort of had to bring to an end because.

[00:03:01] Well, I think it's not that we've already found burnout. It's that? I think that there's a little bit of self-preservation involved, but also the conversations we've had, I think a really helped us certainly, you know, really, really helped me like understand likewise, you know, w whether it was talking about market fit or talking about the work that you do to, to kind of do it on your own.

[00:03:21] And, you know, if you're lucky enough, um, to be able to, to bring an editor on board, to help with certain things. Yeah. Hashtag engagement. Yes. Yeah, exactly. The community building and all of these, all of these different things. Um, It's an interesting, it's been an interesting exercise to, to have these, these conversations, um, for something that is still probably going to be a labor of love and it's yeah, it's difficult.

[00:03:49] So over the last few weeks as we've recorded, you know, we, we've kind of got together, um, most Saturdays for the last sort of 10 weeks or so. Um, Listeners you, you, you won't necessarily know the ins and outs, but as we've been having these conversations, I've been thinking, right. Okay. I really want to get this new show together.

[00:04:10] I know I want to do something after the, wherever the leopard. The conversations that we've had, whether it was like, you know, beginning with, with Dan and Matthew, I was thinking, right. I've definitely want to do that. Sort of just chat with, uh, experts and crimp their knowledge and build something that way.

[00:04:30] And then as we went on to have conversations with people like drew yep. You both kind of gently, uh, cajoled me into, uh, pursuing an idea of actually taking the, the book that I'm writing and put it out in podcast form. And, and I tried it. Didn't work. And I listened back to the theme tune a couple of days ago, and I was like, this is rubbish.

[00:04:55] I don't like any of this. Um, and then, so then came back to the idea of doing the original, you know, chatting with experts and now being. Towards the end of this run, where I'm now going. I, you know what, I don't know if any of this is right. Uh,

[00:05:16] Brendan: I've actually gone through somewhat similar of a journey. Um, you know, like we w we've been talking this whole time about, uh, About my political podcast, dream of making a show with some friends and, uh, you know, early on with, with Matthew and Dan, they were really, uh, encouraging me to do it.

[00:05:34] And I got like a really set on it and I was super excited. And then, uh, Uh, similar stuff happened behind the scenes, trying to work with them on, on making, trying to work with my friends to make it happen. Uh, getting some, doing some market research and that turned out disastrously. And then, uh, you know, talking more with, with drew and Jenna about the whole thing, uh, kind of.

[00:05:58] Uh, put, put the milk into my tea or whatever that saying is, I don't know why,

[00:06:06] but it would cold water over it. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of like, uh, I, I gave it more thought and realized how. How much work it's going to be, how much time I have and how the equation doesn't work out. And if I want, if I'm going to do something, I want to do it right. And I can't, I can't right now. And maybe I'll come back to it later.

[00:06:27] But, um, but now it's not the time, but I've also, so that for me has been incredible. Rewarding to go through this process with you and with, um, with all these great, um, mines in podcasting. Um, and in addition to that, I've thought a lot about my previous podcasting efforts and how, um, I like, I mean, I have a lot of trails of, of having to say tears is Chelsea piers.

[00:06:59] That's a horrible, uh, analogy to make like, um, I have, I have these, these friends that I've just abandoned along the way. Like, um, podcasts, playlist, I just. Stopped at the very beginning of a new season that I was trying to put out because I was just so unhappy with it and no, like no word to the, to the listeners or anything.

[00:07:22] I didn't, I didn't, I said stuff on Twitter, but didn't say anything on the feed. I'm going to shame to myself because, uh, whenever I would listen to like five by five shows in the past, and like they would come up for a couple of episodes and disappear or come on for a long time and then disappear. And I would always, you know, I'd reach out to Dan and be like, Hey Dan, like what what's going on with the show?

[00:07:42] Isn't it, come back, you know, what, why don't you put something in the feed and say that it's on hiatus or it's gone or whatever. And, and then, uh, you know, and then I do it myself and I realized, oh shit, this is actually like really difficult. To just find the time to say, Hey listeners, I'm sorry. Uh, I can't put out episodes right now.

[00:08:02] Hopefully I'll come back to it. I probably won't. Uh, but thank you for being here and listening. It's a super hard. Episode to put out and I haven't been able to do on any of my feeds that I had done. I kind of did it. I kind of do it a little bit on, on, nobody asks for this at the end of every episode, that kind of hint towards when the next episode will be.

[00:08:23] And for the last, uh, for the last episode slash season, I did, I said that I don't have time and it's going to be a long time before episodes come out again. Um, but. Uh, I don't really know how, I don't really know how effective that is, but it definitely like I have this mission in my head that I want to, I wanna, I want to make an episode that, that finalizes pod play and says, Hey, thank you all for listening.

[00:08:51] Uh, if you didn't know, I've also done these other things, including pan including bit rate and couldn't this and that. So go check that out. If you want to hear more me, otherwise, this feed is dead and thanks for being here. And I, I have a mission to do it. It's on a mental checklist that I will eventually get to.

[00:09:09] Um, but yeah, there's sometimes you just have to say, you have to say goodbye to

[00:09:14] Mark: something. I think part of why a good episode is so hard is that you don't necessarily want to admit where you're not ready to admit that. Had to reach the end. Yep. If you didn't have the end in sight, like I said, for me, you know, where we're planning our finale of the, wherever, the leopard and where we're going to do it, you know what we're going to do and stuff, and that's, that's nice.

[00:09:40] And that's a nice feeling and you know, my co-hosts because they, because they don't have to edit it every week and they don't have to. Um, contend with bad audio or someone not recording audio from that mic and instead recording for that laptop and having to take it from Skype. Yep. Because they don't deal with that every week.

[00:09:58] They're really like starting to get sad about it and think, oh, I dunno what I'm going to do every week. And for me, I'm like take a breakfast for that. Um, but I get it. Like, I don't see it again. But when, when you don't have the end in sight, I think it is, it is really hard because we don't all like to admit, like, there's lots of reasons why something has to end and failure has this thing, like in, in startup culture.

[00:10:28] And there's this, this idea of, you know, fail early fail often. Um, and know when something isn't quite working bail and work on the next thing, fail fast. Yeah. Yeah. Podcasting for whatever reasons. I like, I, I feel like that's the, that's the mantra that I've kind of worked by. Um, I've given shows a little bit of time, but I think one of the things that I'm, that I'm realizing in a lot of the research that I've been doing around podiums as well, is that persistence is, is actually so much of the key.

[00:10:58] And it's not just persistence. It's also. It's kind of endurance it's knowing that you're probably going to, so w w one of the, one of the examples I'm looking into this idea of growth hacking, which sounds a lot more douchey than it actually is. It's basically just science. It's basically just AB testing.

[00:11:21] Changing certain aspects of a website, randomly testing that against people and rinse and repeat. And, and, um, you just keep doing that and understanding who your, you know, uh, visitors onto your website and stuff. Um, one of the, one of the things that I, that I was told very, very early on is. Don't expect your first, your second, third, 10th, 20th test to actually yield anything.

[00:11:48] It's not until you get into the hundreds, um, that, that you started to, to see results as it were, um, whatever your version of results is. And I'm listening to a lot of interviews with software as a service founders at the moment. And. I've been surprised at some of the companies that, like I had it in my head that you.

[00:12:16] And I'm not talking about podium hair because this, this was never founded under, under these principles. But the idea with a startup is you, you work in it for maybe six months and then you, you raise the funding and then you, you know, you go and do whatever it is that you do other in Silicon valley or whatever.

[00:12:34] And suddenly you've got a solar panel. Tesla, you know, dream car and a talking fridge. Um, but in reality, a lot of the stories of, of a lot of successful companies, you know, companies that you've heard of, you know, services that you use, they were around for years before they started hitting that real revenue.

[00:12:58] So, yes, we hear about these breakout successes, but if we think back to the conversation with drew, for example, I think he's a really good example because I think a lot of the people that we've spoken to, I think Drew's probably much more of a kind of grassroots indie kind of success story. Yeah. You know, obviously not to denigrate any the conversation with her, with the likes of Jana and stuff like that, but he plugged.

[00:13:24] The, the show for, you know, what three, three or so years before he hit what we might now determine as having made it, or, you know, having been a success. And there will have been milestones along the way that will have looked like a form of success or a form of making it. Um, and you know, there, there isn't that one point where you, you suddenly climbed the mountain and, oh, look, I'm here.

[00:13:49] I've made it. Um, it's, it's a series of. Of steps and then you, you reach that next plateau and then you look out and then you climb to the next one kind of thing. Um, and so I think persistence is, is probably something that we. I need to, well, I certainly, I need to foster more of, and I don't think it's the same for everyone, but also at the same time, if you're not enjoying it, if you're not loving it again, it's the conversations that we've had.

[00:14:17] You know, I think with, with Dan, like if you're not living it, then it's probably not, you probably shouldn't do it. You know, look, look to the next thing. Yeah. But, but don't make it. The lack of listeners or the lack of engagement yet, be that, that reason, because right. Sticking to, it could just be the thing that actually gets you over the hump.

[00:14:37] Especially when we look at the number of abandoned shows, um, you know, to a degree it's like that thing of, um, uh, you know, a bear chases, you and your friend, and it's like, I don't have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun my friend. Like, if you can outlast the next podcast, that's kind of, you know, maybe addressing the same audiences you, as long as you can still enjoy it.

[00:15:01] And you're looking for that engagement and that's the thing that's that's wearing you down is like you feeling like you're speaking into the void. I don't know, maybe just outlasting the competition, just really, really sticking to it and being like, no, I will not be, I'm going to carry on making this show and I'm going to keep getting better and do my raps, um, and, and just keep improving and keep honing, um, while, you know, and while everybody else is flaking out, I'm still going to be here.

[00:15:27] And, and that may be, that's the thing that we take. Uh,

[00:15:31] Brendan: absolutely. This should not be what I take from this, but, uh, your, your bearing allergy reminded me of how, um, most bear, like there are some bears that are attacking and violent, but most bears are just giant puppy dogs. Like they, they are so friendly.

[00:15:47] They just want to like come and cuddle up with you and it's adorable. Um, but I'll go and hug her back. That sounds great. Um, but no, and I totally like totally derail what you were saying, which was actually a really great point. Um, yeah, your, your, your message is consistency reminded me of how, um, th the process I've been doing with, with some of the podcasts that I've worked on, specifically pod play and unplanned.

[00:16:20] And also to a certain extent serendipitous city, when, when I started out that I felt like I was doing good. I, uh, I had that, that, that IRA glass mantra in my head of, I know what good taste is and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it happen. And, um, and they look back on it and I'm like, okay, that wasn't so good.

[00:16:42] I wasn't as good as I thought I was, but I'm learning. And, and like with unplaced by episode three or four, And I, I look back at those now and I'm like really happy with them and episodes one and two. I am very underwhelmed and I wish that I could like redo them, um, especially the soundtracks, because like for episode one, Pretty much just the intro that I made on repeat and just kind of shifted around a little bit.

[00:17:11] Cause they didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do with the soundtracks yet. By episode two, I'm like, okay, I'm getting the hang of this episode three. I made a fucking banger and I love it. And then I looked back at episode one and I'm like, gosh, I could've done so much better. And it made me want to maybe one-to-one have done what we're doing here and held on to all the episodes before releasing them.

[00:17:34] Because if I had, if I had hadn't or if the episode wasn't already out for two weeks, by the time I was working on episode three, uh, then I could have like changed it, but it was already published in live. And, um, I can't, I can't go back and undo it, which is, you know, it's a good thing and a bad thing. If it was a good.

[00:17:52] If it's already out, I can't change it. So I'm not gonna, I'm gonna kind of fuss with it forever. Uh, so really it's really complicated.

[00:18:03] Mark: what do you put your likelihood at? Um, for starting a new show?

[00:18:07] Brendan: Oh, I'm definitely going to start a new show. I just don't know when it will be. I am I'm 100%. I'm going to start, uh, probably, um, I have probably a new show every one to two years. And, uh, and try it out and mess around with it and, and play with the, um, the format and ideas and, and, um, I, I'm never going to stop.

[00:18:32] I love this medium so much, and I'm never gonna stop trying to do something with it. Uh I'm I'm this series has definitely helped me realize how, how much I want to. Um, prepare and, and execute. Well, and not just put out a, uh, pop culture, conversation, podcasts, which is fucking what NAFTA is Brendan. Um, ah, it says

[00:19:04] Mark: the money does a Shabbat.

[00:19:05] Hey, Chuck has got to the galaxy. Yep. Yep.

[00:19:07] Brendan: Yep. Yep. I, I really wanted it to be, I wanted it to be something different and I, I hope every time I think about how similar it is to all the garbage podcasts I listened, I've, I've seen and, and, and skip that. I really hope it's something different. And I can't tell, but I try anyways, but yes, definitely.

[00:19:28] I'm going to definitely continue to making podcasts. And, and if anything, like I'm, I'm a little bit more inspired to. Because of the series because of these conversations then than not. Hmm. Uh, that's good. How about

[00:19:42] Mark: you? Yeah, I mean, I, I got the bug a long time ago and, and, you know, there's only so many hours in the day and what I, what I mean by that is, is more, it's kind of the opposite of that sometimes.

[00:19:54] Like, I I've got this. Um, tightly packed day that starts at half five and finishes at sort of 6:00 PM. And then I come home and I don't necessarily want to work because of the structure of the means I'm, I'm kind of working with purpose. So I'm like, I'm I'm I know what I'm doing from, uh, from the start of the day.

[00:20:15] And then I know what the next is going to be a note in the next one that's going to be so there's, there's not necessarily a downtime, so it's quite intense work. And then I come home and I don't always. Do more work or whatever. And so the evenings can start to draw on. And if you're the kind of person who, who has what, and now coining the term of restless mind syndrome, it can be, it can be tricky to fit.

[00:20:40] Like I've joked about this with friends. Like the amount of times I've, I've got home and I've, I've had my, I've had my dinner and then I'm like, what do people do? Like, I don't know what, what the people did. They just sit and watch TV until they go to bed. Like, I don't what the humans do. I don't know when the day when, like they have a job and then they finished doing the job and then they come home.

[00:21:05] Like, so for me, it's always been side projects. And when you get to a point where your side project became. Job or your side project became your hobby, which became your job kind of thing. There's only so much of that you want to do. Um, you know, before you start to just go, oh God, this is a bit much. Um, and so often.

[00:21:27] The default for me is all right. What, what's the next podcast project? Because it's just, it's, it's ingrained in me. Like that's the thing that I want to do. Um, and, and that's what I want to make. And so, you know, that's where the likes of, of bit rate, uh, is coming in. So sometimes I have that, that thing that we've discussed before of, I want to make a podcast, what should it be about, which is not the way to do it.

[00:21:52] And then sometimes. You have a great idea for something, what form should it take? You know, w when that happens, you know, I mean, like I was watching, uh, the umbrella academy. Oh, nice. And as I was watching, uh, the umbrella academy, uh, some idea came into my head and that's the first time. Oh, I don't know how long, well that's genuine idea for a song is actually just a paired kind of fully formed in my brain.

[00:22:20] Oh, that's fun. Because songs for me are stories. Like I can't write in any other way. I can't just write conceptual stuff. It has to be a story. Um, and this idea for a story was, and I knew it was a song. Um, and. I just wrote down the synopsis of the song is, you know, like in a three-act structure, uh, like where, you know, like it was a story and I was just like, it was really nice to be at a point to be receptive to that.

[00:22:46] That's awesome. Yeah, because I think I I'm now off the treadmill of what's the next podcast project going to be, that I'm opening up to, to looking at the media, um, and figuring out how to tell. My story. So if I look at this, this, um, but children's book idea first started as a podcast, and then I got to the point where I did the first episode and I wasn't happy with it.

[00:23:10] That would be the end of it. Whereas I know I'm going to go to my coffee shop tomorrow. I'm going to have my, um, have my big breakfast and I'm going to sit there with my iPad on my keyboard, and I'm going to write another chapter of the book. That's awesome. Yeah, because the idea. Of the underlying idea was not to create a podcast, a podcast.

[00:23:30] It was to create a set of characters and, and a, and a story. And so I think maybe my biggest takeaway is, is actually starting to really consider. The medium. And if you want to make podcasts, then that's absolutely fine. And I get that. And I think that's maybe where I'm like, yeah, I don't know that I want to make podcasts.

[00:23:50] I want to tell stories and that might be real life stories. Uh, it might be not, you know, it might be made up stories that are in my brain and I kind of want to do the thing that I want to use. The medium that tells the story of the best. I almost hope that it is a podcast because I like making them, but I want to make the medium.

[00:24:12] I want to make the message, the key hair, not, not, not focus on the medium. And I think that maybe that's the cure to burnout is actually thinking of the project. Thinking about the message. Think about podcast playlist, not just as a podcast, but as a way of discussing interesting podcasts that you like, because you can then get to a point where if you're, if you're done, I promise I'll stop speaking a minute.

[00:24:38] You're fine. If you get to a point where you're thinking about starting the next season, you could just go, you know what, maybe this season isn't blog that isn't a podcast. Maybe this season is a set of, um, animations or, uh, uh, or, or some blog posts or, uh, it's me going into forums and answering questions or like, whatever the, yeah know, um, whatever.

[00:25:08] Medium. It takes maybe that's that because it's about the message it's about disseminating your love and interest and knowledge about podcasts. Uh, and you know, this just slightly weird because it's, it's tied up in podcasts, but yeah. That's that that's, that's kind of starting to excite me thinking about things in that way.

[00:25:28] Brendan: Yeah, for sure. Uh, coming back to my, um, my dream studio at my, my new cottage, um, for the, for the, for the near future, uh, just, you know, just the, the house buying process to move the, um, Th th the changes that are going on in my life, uh, that's going to be taking up a lot of my time in the short term, in the medium term.

[00:25:53] Um, I'm not going to have a great place to really have a set up for recording. I'll have a temporary like desk and stuff, so I can set up right. My mic and whatever, I can do stuff, but it's not going to feel like a home yet, but probably. A year and a half, two years, I'm going to have my shed built up. I'm going to have a proper space.

[00:26:15] I'm going to have decent equipment. And I'm going to, I feel like this, this pull and this destination in my head that I'm going to feel so comfortable in a. That it's going to help me with creative juices flowing and getting into the point where I'm going to be more comfortable, making more regular podcasts and other, um, art that so suits me.

[00:26:45] Um, I'm mostly going to have more time on my hands because of things that are getting out of my life. But, and so I've, I feel this excitement for the. Not too distant future,

[00:26:58] Mark: whereas where's long-term where do you want to see yourself? Brendan and a in five years time? Like what's, what's the, what's the five-year horizon look like for, for podcasting, for you and for the industry?

[00:27:10] Brendan: Oh my gosh, the industry. Oh boy. Uh, start with you. Yeah, let's, let's start with smaller. Yeah for me, like, I am trying to transition more into a career in podcasting right now. Like my main income is remodeling and why. That is amazing. I get to work with my hands. I get to see something, uh, progress in front of me.

[00:27:35] Um, I know that it's good work and so I can feel really proud of it. I get to see my, I get one-on-one interaction with my clients and they, you know, they're appreciative and they give me money. So it's like all, it's a very practical, very, um, rewarding career. It's also really hard on. And with my chronic fatigue and other things that are going on with me, I don't see a long career path with that.

[00:28:04] Like maybe definitely five more years, maybe 10, maybe 15, depending on how things go. My new diets really helping me out a lot, but I, I worry about. Long-term trends. So, so yeah, I am trying to focus more on the puck industry. I don't know what the future is for pan. I love pan. I want it to keep going, but it's, it's such a fun side project for me.

[00:28:31] Um, and new, I do get editing clients here and there. I do get, um, some things that bring money in, but it's not like a huge revenue source for me at all. Um, I think I'll always like, kind of keep it going as long as people are interested and people are interested, which is, which is amazing. But I am, uh, my, my, my long-term goal is I'm, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to definitely work on creating a podcast or two that are something that can be, um, a long-term either weekly or biweekly.

[00:29:08] Podcasts that I, that I can be consistent on. Cause I've never been consistent on any of my podcasts. I'd even say a platform in bit rate. We have, you know, because of the hiatuses and missed episodes that I've had to do. Um, I haven't been able to have the consistency that I've wanted to, uh, at least try and really.

[00:29:27] Gives the best effort to, to, um, putting the show together. And so I want to, I want to have one to two podcasts. I can really do that with that. Um, yeah. That I really did the college try to, and then a lot more podcast editing I've been taking on a few more clients, which has been really great. Um, and, uh, you know, becoming like I I'm, I'm flattered at.

[00:29:55] W the position I have had I've I've put myself into, in the podcast industry. Um, and you know, I've become the podcast librarian the second ever for pod chaser. And, uh, it feels so rewarding to be recognized as somebody who has decent tastes in podcasts, I guess, I guess that's what I'm recognized for. And so I, I want to, you know, try to continue to grow that as much as I can, if it feels so weird to think of myself as a brand that I'm trying to, uh, cultivate, I guess.

[00:30:30] Um, and I, I think back to a lot of what Marco talks about about. Um, how much he hates brands and how much he hates that cultivation. And I think about that a lot. Marco hates everything he does. And he also, he does all those things. I mean, a lot of those scents, like he,

[00:30:48] Mark: he is a brand, he, you know, he is a very consistent brand.

[00:30:51] Brendan: Yeah. Marco Arment for those who are we, or aren't in the know of what we're talking about. And he like, but he's also really thoughtful. And I appreciate that. Uh, and so I, I tried to. Like, you know, take his thoughts and, and, and think about them on my own and, and apply them to myself as best I can, because I do believe that he has a good moral foundation, um, that, uh, that I, that I appreciate.

[00:31:16] So, uh, yeah, I think that's kind of. My F I, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, instead of having podcasting be just my 10% time, I'm going to try it in the next five years. Try to shift it to my maybe 50% time and, um, have, have there be enough revenue to actually. Make it worth it. So industry wise next five years, I it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the Spotify Gimlet thing.

[00:31:50] Um, they, they recently talked at the hot pod summit about how all the old Gimlet shows are not going away. They're going to just stay the same. They're going to keep going, you know, uh, don't worry, but all the new spot, all the new Gimlet shows. They didn't say anything about, and of course they're going to be a lot of exclusives, uh, and it's a massive, Gimlet's massive.

[00:32:14] And, you know, they're, they can probably make internal and external of Spotify shows, which is probably that's my guess is that's, what's probably gonna happen, but it's gonna be interesting to see how that affects the whole industry. And. If Gimlet is going to be, I'm sorry. If Spotify is going to become this, this monster that starts eating things up.

[00:32:40] If apple or other larger companies are going to, um, get the same idea and be like, oh shit. Now we have to start gobbling up big production houses so that we can have exclusives. Uh, I don't predict that for apple. Uh, I think that they just like, yeah, we're, we're the big dog. We don't really give a shit like, uh, you know, everybody comes to us and we're fine.

[00:33:05] I think, I think they're going to ride that until they actually get bit by it, but I don't know. Yeah. I, uh, I, I predict the podcasts are going to grow. Um, I think it's going to be a slow and steady pace I can look at has been, and. Uh, you know, we're just going to keep seeing more and more odd celebrity podcasts like David Tennant and, um, uh, Conan O'Brien and whatever, just come out with their own thing just because they can, uh, and then now they're not very good.

[00:33:36] I love David TenneT. I've loved him since Dr. Hu. Uh, uh, I've I've loved him in everything I've seen him in except for camping. And, uh, yeah, the podcast was so underwhelming. Um, But anyways, uh, how

[00:33:51] Mark: about you mark? We'll find the as time. Um, I'll be, I'll be sleeping in my, my sweet, sweet Casper mattress, uh, drinking some sort of, um, kale smoothie that, uh, you know, um, I want to be, I think so let's, there's, there's two possible.

[00:34:17] Futures, um, in, in a choose your own adventure style. There's the. Running continuing to run podium future. And there's the, what happens after podium future for whatever reason, it's, let's say I get bored by Spotify. There you go. And so to that regard, I, I, I want podium to get to a point where it kind of it's just that night.

[00:34:43] Even keel where, you know, people like to use the service and, you know, there's, there's only a couple of fires to put out, uh, every now and again. And, uh, we're just, we're just sort of, you know, keep keeping on track of things. And I think I have conversations with people sometimes, and they're kind of surprised that we're not there, um, because the brand.

[00:35:02] That I have with, ah, I don't know if this is because of the brand or what, but the, I think the brand that podium puts out is quite sort of self-assured and the messaging is fairly sort of like it's not particularly thirsty. Yeah. Yeah. And it's got a confidence about it, which, um, sometimes belies the fact that I think people can be surprised at.

[00:35:26] Um, the fact that it's, you know, It's not comfortable. Right. You know, it, it, it survives its biggest expense at the moment and all that, all that kind of stuff. And so I'd like that to change. Um, and so there there's that, but, but let's say, um, in, in a year's time, I, I don't know yet. Let's, let's go go. The, the, the fantasy route of, uh, I sell to Spotify, that's not going to happen.

[00:35:50] Um, like, you know, let's, let's, you know. Yeah. But whatever, um, then. I've, you know, I've had all sorts of ideas. I'd love to really put my weight behind a good podcast network and, and really try and make something. Um, I, you know, I, I try to do that in 2014 or 2013 and it, it didn't work and I didn't really know what I was doing and did things the usual way.

[00:36:15] I think really the next thing I do, I can't and don't want to do it. Um, because I don't know enough. I like the things that I know, I know, you know, enough to, to be dangerous, but there's so much that not just the things that I don't know, but also. Having that other person to bounce ideas off is, is so important.

[00:36:39] And, um, it's, it's so easy to go down a particular road or route and think that's the way forward. And it's not until you start having conversations with people that, you know, that can either lead you in a different direction or can make you more excited or they can reveal something you haven't thought of.

[00:36:53] So, you know, I I'd love to pursue that at some points. And so, so there's, you know, there's, there's the, uh, in, in the, the Bandersnatch choose your own adventure game. That is. Those are the two options I think. And at the moment, I don't know which one I pick, um, because I love podiums. And as I've said many times before, it's the best thing I've ever done.

[00:37:14] Um, I want to continue making that an awesome thing. I just want it to be sort of self-sustainable there. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and just kind of, ah, there it is. And, you know, If I go on holiday for a week or two weeks, there's someone kind of minding the sharp, but none of that kind of thing, um, More more into that, to, to the industry itself.

[00:37:38] I think I, I do think that apple is going to, I think something's going to happen in the next few years. Um, because w I've said earlier, Either on, on platform or bit. Right. You know, I've had this analogy that Apple's got this ball, but they don't really, like, they don't want anyone else to have it, but then not that bothered about playing with it.

[00:38:01] Like I see my account sometimes. Yeah.

[00:38:03] Brendan: Th the, the kid that stuffs the ball underneath their shirt and runs away.

[00:38:06] Mark: Absolutely. Um, you know, like Mo you know, Roscoe, the big cat hair will just sort of sit leisurely with his poor on something and he's not fussed about it at all. Yep. Bailey will come along. My Roscoe's.

[00:38:20] I know mine. Yeah. But you weren't playing with it. Roscoe Bailey wants to pay within an hour. No mind. And that's apple. What's happening is very slowly. Spotify is just

[00:38:35] Brendan: inching

[00:38:35] Mark: that ball away from them. Just eat just very, very slowly and, you know, just, just it's attached to a little string and ever so slowly.

[00:38:44] Putting the yanking, the string. Um, and at some point, apple is going to wake up that that eye is going to open up and it's going to go, oh, hang on. The ball is three feet away from me. Well, how did that happen? And they're going to go and chase it.

[00:38:57] I

[00:38:57] Brendan: wonder if I could tweak your analogy just a little bit and uh, I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong, if you think it's different, but I see it more as Spotify is, uh, they're inflating their own.

[00:39:08] And they're just going to take over the court. Um, well, apple still holds the ball and is running away. Spotify is like, all right, well, you know, I'm just going to pump and pump and pump until I got my own ball going. And then, cause I, I feel like they're, they're, they're going to be so isolated

[00:39:27] Mark: and separate.

[00:39:28] Absolutely. Right. And, and I think that the reason you are so right is because they are bringing. People who were previously not podcast listeners. I think that's, that's why that ball, like, that's why it is a different problem because the ball, the apples playing with is, is the ball that it's hard for the last, you know, 10, 15 years.

[00:39:45] Whereas yeah, the, the ball you're talking about Spotify, a pumping that up themselves with people who weren't traditionally podcasts. Exactly,

[00:39:52] Brendan: exactly. Which is a good thing in, in the whole field of, uh, you know, it's going to bring in more people who haven't been listening to podcasts. I love that aspect.

[00:40:01] Um, I just don't like the silo aspect. I loved, uh, Jason Snell's, um, commentary on the Spotify by I think it was on upgrade. It might've been on the secret subscriber podcast where. Uh, he talks about how, you know, it makes a lot of sense for Spotify to bring in podcasts because they have to pay per song.

[00:40:23] When somebody streaming music, they don't have to pay anything when somebody is streaming a podcast and it keeps them, it keeps the people on the service, keeps people wanting to buy the service and all that, or, or listen to ads or whatever. Uh, it really does make a lot of sense for Spotify. It's just, it's just not a good podcast app and it's a silo, which.

[00:40:43] Are detrimental to the podcast as a hug us interesting as a whole.

[00:40:48] Mark: Ah, okay. I ha I'm with you. I, I feel like. It is, I'm going to say some things and I don't know how much I agree with what I'm going to say, go for it. So I will bear that in mind. I won't hold you to anything you say, but I wonder given that Spotify actually have a more open directory than apple now.

[00:41:11] Oh, uh, please explain. Anyone can submit to Spotify and they don't review.

[00:41:17] Brendan: Oh, I thought the dead interesting.

[00:41:20] Mark: I believe not now. I believe they don't. I believe that you can just submit a new will get listed and you, you no longer have to be partnered with a particular provider. You can submit your own RSS feed and you'll get in the silo aspect, which is absolutely true is the fact that they rehost your audio.

[00:41:39] The reason I, and I do believe that this is the case. It's a technical reason and I support this is that that's the way that they can make that audio work across devices in the way that it does in the way that you can get a podcast to play on several speakers at the same time, they can only really do that if they are.

[00:42:01] Posting the audio themselves. You couldn't do that. If so, Marco Arment talks a lot about dynamic ad insertion in podcasts, and you couldn't do something. It would have to come directly from the phone and then be broadcast out, um, in order for that to work because you can't take the same MP3 file and play it via different speakers, because it's not the same MP3 file you would start to, they would start to get out of sync because you have different ads.

[00:42:28] Whereas because of the way Spotify deliver their audio, that's absolutely something they can do. And you can turn your phone off. Your phone can die. As long as you know, you've got something to control the, uh, you've got a control plane that you can talk to, to say, just stop, pause, whatever. Um, your audio will continue playing regardless of what started it.

[00:42:49] And so that is, that's a really, really good thing. And it is cross-platform in a way. Most, uh, you know, many other apps aren't, um, I I'd like it to get better, you know, things like, uh, voice integration and stuff like that. And you are of course, absolutely right in that he's not a good podcast app. Right. Um, but it it's at the moment.

[00:43:11] They're not going after us. No, I don't listen to podcasts and Spotify, of course. I don't even listen to music and Spotify. Oh, well there, yeah. I mean, that's a different thing. Like I'm, I'm, Squadify all the way. Oh, But I have no, I have no interest, no desire at all to listen to podcasts on Spotify, unless I'm making sure that they work.

[00:43:27] Okay. Um, and, but, but you know, like I said, my brother does my brother's in the car and he'll listen to the Anfield rap or, uh, something else about Liverpool. Um, because that's what he likes and they're all on ICAST and they're all on Spotify and Spotify is out there. Use it. He brought up an interesting point.

[00:43:46] I think about a fair bit and have been a little bit more, and I wonder, I'm kind of wondering why they haven't entered this space. Um, but where is Amazon prime for podcasts? Where is the, uh, the rolling in of the Amazon music service? into podcasts or the, or the other way round, given that they've got a suite of smart speakers, which will sound perfect for podcasts and, and they've made their, I've got a music

[00:44:19] Brendan: service.

[00:44:20] Yeah, they got music service. They'd make their own audio programs, but they're not podcasts. They're not distributed, but they, they make their own. Yeah. Independent audio shows or whatever you wanna call.

[00:44:33] Mark: Yeah, absolutely. They've got the mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. I mean, none of their apps that are particularly good apps.

[00:44:40] Um, no, it's, it's a conversation that my brother was having with a, with a friend who said, um, he, he was a, uh, an Amazon music subscriber and, um, he didn't have a podcast app. It wouldn't take Spotify that long to, to get themselves a directory. I wouldn't have thought they've obviously got the music stuff sorted.

[00:45:00] They could compete in this space. And then yes, it's another silo, but we are already in a world where you have to submit your podcast to a few places. Anyway. So. You know, what's honestly, what's one more. Um, so I don't know. I think, and I think the, the other thing is we, we probably will get to the horrible points of exclusives and then yes.

[00:45:20] You know, people like me will stop w will say, that's not what a podcast is because you have to have the app. And this is the difficult. Gimlet is going to get into.

[00:45:30] Brendan: So you think, do you think podcasting is going to become a world with Hulu and Netflix and HBO and, um, Showtime and all these different, uh, big

[00:45:43] Mark: Absolutely I do, but there's also going to be. Public access television, I think. Yup. Yup. Yup. The, the, the people who aren't blessed by those networks, I think, you know what the, actually, you know what, I don't know. I was going to say the internet routes around, uh, and I, I get that, um, R O U T E S.

[00:46:09] You know, which is, which is a common thing, like a lot of problems, the internet routes around them and figures out a way to circumvent things, whether it's for nefarious purposes or just to liberate information, whatever it is. I honestly, I actually don't know when I, when I stopped to think about it and, and stop just trying to sort of be yeah.

[00:46:29] Fist in the app. Um, it got a tear in about it and actually stopped for a minute and go. You look at the likes of a cast and I'm not, I'm not at this point. I know I've talked a lot of shit, but I'm not demonizing them. When I say this companies like them, that they're going to drive down the cost for acquisitions and all that kind of stuff.

[00:46:52] And then I think we're going to get to a point where. It becomes like YouTube, where we will just have these, these places where people will put their audio. Um, and it will just be a lot easier to access, uh, what, what that is yet. I don't know whether it's anchor and there's some system by where. You can use whatever app you want.

[00:47:17] I don't know, but I, I, I worry that there is going to be a tipping point because I think that that mentality of the internet routes around works to a certain degree, but there aren't enough people who are that worried about controlling their own feed. Yeah. I think there are far more people who will just go, you know what, actually, if there is a chance to sell, uh, some pre-roll ads.

[00:47:41] You know what 50 P per episode is 50 P more than I was making last week. It's a hundred percent more money than I was making last week. And everybody's already on this platform anyway, whatever platform it is. So I, I actually don't know fi five years down the line. I'm not maybe as hopeful as I was because.

[00:47:59] I think it's, it's going to be harder for the industry because there's probably going to be a few people, um, jamming. There's going to be a few bodies jamming into this one, small doorway, but I think one of them is going to force their way through. I don't think it will kill independent. Gracian I think what it means to be an independent podcast will change.

[00:48:21] And I think this, this idea that it's just based on RSS,

[00:48:28] Brendan: I dunno, your, your, your, your, your doom and gloom prediction, or am I saying. Uh, the darkest timeline, another podcast that I was recently about to start, and I didn't is a podcast I was going to create with, uh, with Sarah, my, my wife, and it was called together alone.

[00:48:47] And it was, um, it's going to be an audio drama in seasons about loneliness and about how you can feel lonely when you're with somebody. One of the things that she said to me when. We were kind of coming up with the idea and, and brainstorming and planning for it was, uh, she was asking me if I, if we'd missed it, if we'd missed our opportunity in the industry, like, if, in terms of like w with, with blogging and stuff, you know, like when, when blogging came around, there was like a sweet spot where anybody could come up with a blog and it would, it would really take off because everybody was thirsty for.

[00:49:25] And there was just, there was such a desire and then it became flooded and then everybody had a blog and then nobody wanted to read them anymore. Um, or at least a lot fewer. Uh, and she was wondering about that state with podcasts because, uh, it may be the circles that I run in and probably is. Everybody has a podcast.

[00:49:48] Like it's just like, like, you know, like 15, 20 years ago, everybody played guitar and, and this, this, this constantly this thing where everybody has the thing of the moment. And, um, I've thought about that since then. Like wondering what, what podcasts future is going to be is if everybody does have a podcast, are they going to get burned out of it?

[00:50:11] Are they going to drop it and then not? Like podcasts in general anymore and not even listen to them. Uh, Which now I want to put a, I think I'm a couple parents medicals deep, and I want to add another one, which is like the amount of people that make a podcast, but do not listen to podcasts. Is infuriating.

[00:50:33] The people who, who don't really care about podcasts or the, or the meat, you know, the medium is whole. And just want to put something up there, like, um, on one hand I get it. Like, you don't have to read blogs to be a blogger. And you don't have to listen to podcasts to be a podcaster, but it's good to at least know the medium and know good etiquette.

[00:50:52] And, uh, I dunno, I've been putting together some lists for pat chaser on top podcasts and there's, there's some that are on the top lists because of downloads and. Like their description of their podcast is the same as the title of the podcast, which doesn't say anything about the podcast. It's just the person's name.

[00:51:14] And it's like, oh my God, come

[00:51:16] Mark: on there. There are so many things to take from your, your points. I think, um, yes, everybody. Um, everybody can have a blog. Um, I don't think it means that there's fewer readers, but I think what it does mean is because there's more people reading them, but it means that your market share has gone down.

[00:51:34] And so w we're we're now at a sort of a market rate adjustment point with podcasting. There are still so few people who actively listened to podcasts that there is still space in people's. Days. So often we talk about making shows and, and, you know, there's limited time in people's days, often, we're thinking about pre-existing podcast listeners and what a lot of companies are doing.

[00:51:59] Well, I think is targeting people who aren't, because that's where the growth is. Uh, in the same way that the Google podcasts, that makes a lot of sense in the same way that Spotify makes a lot of sense, because it's going after people who are just in their cars, on their commute too, don't really engage with this stuff.

[00:52:13] But they've suddenly seen this thing pop up. They've heard the word podcast it's been mentioned by a comedian. They like, and they're like, oh, check out what one of these things is. I think it's a bit like radio, but with fewer quality controls, that's the, you know, like that's what I understand podcasts to be.

[00:52:27] And so there's several people like my dad. Put on a podcast because he opens the Spotify app. Um, and so you open up this huge swath of P of listeners, and I think possibly to. Veer away from the darker timeline, uh, you know, a better way of looking at it is if we can open up these new audiences, then yeah.

[00:52:50] We'll take away listenership from, from some of the big dogs may be, or will dilute that listenership, but it will get spread. And far many more people will come along though. Big shows won't just be entitled to because they were the big shows. Um, because those big shows may be, are only interested, interesting to people who are interested in podcasts.

[00:53:15] Whereas as the size of an as, as the footprint of, of audio listening grows, then we can. Find these little gaps in people's minds of weird little interests that they're in, that they have. And we can find things to fill those interests in the same way that that blogging does. And as long as we can stay classy, um, then we'll be all right, because blocking has that same problem, like blogging has that class problem.

[00:53:47] There's, there's a lot of, uh, You know, crappy content and people just trying to what I mean, I literally, one of the courses I took, uh, in, in my little strategy week was basically about how you can rip off other people's content. Um, and just do one better, like make one more point or make a slightly better graphic to go at the, at the top and, and, and you'll do better.

[00:54:10] And it's like as if we can not dive to that level. And that's where the darkest timeline comes in. That's where I start to worry. But if we can avoid that, then.

[00:54:31] Brendan: in case this is, uh, the last episode of it. Right. Which I hope it doesn't. I hope, I hope we come back with a, you know, in, in future plans or whatever, but. I would be remiss if I didn't rant about Gimlet. When the last time you subscribed to either without fail or startup or both,

[00:54:50] Mark: it's funny, you should mention that Brandon, uh, cause I'm subscribed to a start up and obviously a without fail episodes of starting.

[00:55:01] Oop in my feed. And I was quite happy to listen to the S malware because I like, uh, I like Mr. Robot a lot tan. I like it. I just didn't hear any of the other episodes. I didn't subscribe to that podcast.

[00:55:13] Brendan: Right. Like I, I did subscribe to, without felt because I actually like Alex Bloomberg. I liked his interview style.

[00:55:20] I like how he's kind of weird. I like. The, the, the casualness of it, but also the, the depth of, of conversations they actually gets into with people, uh, that he had one recently with, um, a woman who revitalized build a bear. And it was actually kind of an interesting, uh, discussion on how to rebuild a brand.

[00:55:42] And like they went through, um, Through some of her successes and failures. And I really liked it a lot, but I don't need to hear it fucking twice. Why the hell does a major feed? A very prominent big podcast feed being taken over by another podcast. Like either, either combine them into the same fucking feed or have them as two separate podcasts and don't mirror the podcasts and make me download each episode twice.

[00:56:14] Mark: Aye, aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. I understand.

[00:56:22] Brendan: Yeah,

[00:56:23] Mark: so we haven't fixed podcasting. Brendan. We would

[00:56:25] Brendan: have no shit.

[00:56:26] Mark: I thought that was the goal. So did I have it? Uh, and it, it, it, it seems that we haven't, should we meet back here in, uh, in, in 18 months and see if either of us can, um, can fix it. It's a date. Sounds good. It's been a pleasure, mark. I liked speaking with you.

[00:56:43] And I think this is, this is probably just this just us talking. Yeah, I dunno. I nearly said we should keep something open. That's not bit rate, but it's us too. Just talking. Yeah. And

[00:56:57] Brendan: so did we? Yeah, I think we

[00:56:59] Mark: did. I think we just, I think we just cooked ourselves. Oh, no, no. My free time.

[00:58:03] Brendan: We just started a podcast with no idea about what the pug is. And we just said the opposite of her.

[00:58:13] Have we learned nothing? Barely not. Oh my God. Oh,

[00:58:19] Mark: that's great.