[00:00:00] Simon: I remember there was a video while of ago of this mum and her daughter in America making a cup of tea they put it in the microwave with the milk first and there was all these English reaction videos to it. And it was so good.
[00:00:16] Mark: Welcome to Ear, Brain, Heart, and experiment in showing up. I'm Mark Steadman and I'm working to understand how we can use our powers of persuasion for good. As someone who teaches people, how to podcast and to feel good about it. I'm fascinated with the way a message can travel. Entering through the air, spending time in the brain where our thoughts mingle with the listeners. And then by building trust and intimacy, ending up in the heart.
[00:00:44] I run a podcasting school for social entrepreneurs called Podcode. And today's guest is the reason that this site exists.
[00:00:52] Simon Batchelar is a marketing mentor and one half of Better Bolder Braver, a community of coaches who want to feel less icky about putting themselves out there. Simon encouraged me to make a podcast about podcasting back in the spring of 2021. That podcast turned into a blog, a newsletter and a full curriculum. And speaking of the blog, Simon turned me on to a format for writing, which helped me find my flow. So we kicked off by talking about the ways that formulas can make the process easier on us, but also give the reader a sense of comfort.
[00:01:32] Simon: Well, I think there is that element of some bits of marketing are quite formulaic and it's not that your trying to make something fit a formula because that formula is the winning formula. It's just that sometimes there is a recipe that works and you just have to kind of stick to it in order to make marketing a bit more manageable.
[00:01:53] Because if you were to approach every blog post, as if it was war and peace or your life's work, then you'd never get an, a thing written. Whereas if you've got a series of prompts that are like, well, if you start with this and then you go to that, and then you go into this, it makes it really easy to read. And people enjoy that format. It's tried and tested and people just seem to like it when you write blog posts in that way.
[00:02:16] And it means that it works for the people who are detailed people who are going to read every single blog you put out every single time, they will start to notice it and they start to become familiar with it and it's reassuring and they like it.
[00:02:30] But the speed readers are the people who dip in the headlines, do the heavy lifting for you. Like the, the, the headings. Sorry, do that heavy lifting all the way down the article. And they'll just read the couple of sentences they need to read from that, from that post, because the structure of it tells them where their bit is.
[00:02:50] For the, for the people who are in a hurry, there is that one bit at the end, which is the objection handling T to your point at the top of the blog that you raise, you know, the objection handling is my favorite bit to write in every blog post. In essence, I generally, you know, sort of super secret insight, I normally write the headline for it. And the kind of catch at the top, which is the, this is the thing I want to talk to you about. then the next thing I generally write is the objection handling. I normally skip down to that because that just comes to mind straight away. Cause I imagine I'm talking to someone and they're like, yeah, but what about moving in there? And then just ask. So that's the bit I go and write straight away. then I go back and fill the rest in.
[00:03:30] Mark: I, I don't want to sort of give away the whole formula because people should, you know, come and speak to you to, uh, to, to discuss it. But once you sort of get settled and I think once you can remove what feels like a lot of capacity from marketing, I think that's, that's one of the big issues is like so many things can feel opaque and kind of just, just a mystery and like a black box and kind of magic. Like people know how to do marketing in this sort of, you know, almost if theory wait, it's just like, did people have this gift of marketing? Whereas it's stuff you can learn, right?
[00:04:06] Simon: Yeah. And I think at the, at the sort of basic level of what we do is exactly that we're saying to people marketing, isn't a magic box, March kitting, isn't magic beans. It's not a magic formula. It's six things you need to do, and you need to do them in that order. And then it works.
[00:04:24] Mark: And keep doing them.
[00:04:25] Simon: Yeah, it is something you need to repeat and it's something you need to keep doing and working on because your business and more importantly, your clients evolve and change. So that's why. You do need to work through it more than once you don't, you don't ever do marketing. Like you never complete marketing. It's
[00:04:44] Mark: I've done all the
[00:04:47] Simon: Today this week I completed marketing. So now I can move on to, you know, it's something that's always going, but if you work through the simple principles of marketing that in the right order, then it works. And I think what many people get tripped up with, and these really the reason why better, bolder braver exists in the form it does now is because when we were in the agency, we had so many people coming to us saying, you know, I want to do all this stuff and then ask and gear, but that's great, but you haven't done the basics.
[00:05:17] And it was a business coach we were working with at the time, who was like, well, if you know these basics, like, I don't know that from your website, there's no videos. There's no blogs on that. So why don't you write this down? Like, people need to know this and he's like, Give it to the clients to say, okay, great, yeah, you want to do stage number five of marketing. That's cool, but you haven't done 1, 2, 3, and four. So as much as we'd love to take your money to do number five, we can't do that until you've done. Number 1, 2, 3, 4.
[00:05:43] So in creating that and teaching that, and that's where I go. That's where I came to learn that that's what I really enjoy doing. And actually that is what I wanted to do more of because me and Ben had tried growing our agency and we scaled it up to eight people. In 2015, we had eight full-time team. It's a big business. You know, there was lots of, lots of work flown around and then it just didn't work. Just all of a sudden the whole thing, just the wheels fell off the car, basically. It was just not working. It's stressful. Uh, me and Ben were burning out. We were doing too much. We'd overstretched ourselves. So we had to make the incredibly difficult decision to scale back the agency, right back to just me and Ben. So we went from eight to just me and Ben, um, which is a really hard, but everybody who, who was part of that process was absolutely fantastic and very understanding. And, and we couldn't have done that downsizing without them. Um, we still see a lot of them because we did this in Chichester, a tiny city in the UK where everyone knows everyone. So we still see most of them, like most weeks,
[00:06:53] Mark: Any awkward conversations.
[00:06:54] Simon: no, not really. It's the opposite. In fact, it enabled two of them to go off and start their own agency. You know, one of them went freelance and then got a really great in-house gig doing the stuff he loves doing. And, you know, as, as they say, the, the end of something is the beginning of the next thing. Right. And it's just helping people move between those two things without stitching them up, I think is, is the thing. So that's what we did.
[00:07:18] But what we then realized is we needed to do something new. We needed to change it. We realize that the aim of running an agency isn't for us anyway, isn't to grow a bigger agency. In fact, if anything, we want to do the opposite of that. We wanted to not grow an agency. So we essentially created a studio where you come to us and we assemble a team to do a project, then we release it. And this is something that I heard in a podcast the other day, actually, with someone say the difference between an agency and a studio. And I think studio describes what we do. It's like a film studio, isn't it? You know, they hire a director, they hire a camera person, sound people, actors comes in, they make a movie and then they release it and it's done. The studio still exists, but the project is done. So that's really what we're doing. We've got a team of freelancers. We call upon the best talent we know to do the project. And then the project goes so
[00:08:07] Mark: I like the idea that whether it's you in walking around Chichester or whatever, sort of, uh, turning up, uh, like, uh, a mechanic and, you know, he's, he's there under a car and then, you know, he, he winches himself out from under the car and he looks at you and he's like you son of a bitch back in, you know, one last heist
[00:08:28] Simon: Yeah. Yeah. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in. Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:34] Mark: You've had. cause we, we chatted a while ago. And you revealed that you like, you know the audio space? Probably, well, no, definitely more than I do in terms of like actually making audio and stuff, because that's what you did a lot of what made you get into as much as I'm not like necessarily the sort of let's do the whole life story guy, what made you make that move into marketing?
[00:09:03] Simon: So I actually started the marketing agency before I got into sound weirdly. So I met Ben in a pub one day and we were playing, we were stood next to a pool table with a group of two groups of friends. He was among a group of friends. I was in another, and that we were like playing each other in a friendly, whatever pool. Anyway, it got to me and Ben playing. We were the last to play. Everyone else was really drunk. And I was like, do you know how to play pool? And he's like, no, I was like, do you want to just not play pool and have a beer? And he's like, yeah. All right. So we got talking and then we realized that I played drums, he played bass. So we agreed to meet up and jam and just play some Rage Against the Machine covers. So which we did and a scout heart, we put our ear plugs into and everything up to 11 and just went for it.
[00:09:45] Mark: Beautiful.
[00:09:46] Simon: um, this other guy, he knew Mike, who actually went on to being a very good band. He was way better than me and Ben, but anyway, we just jammed for weeks and months and, and anyway, long story short, his current, his then employer said to him, Hey, you know a bit about computers, can you build me a website? So we, we chatted about it. We said, yes. And then he's like, but I'm going to need an invoice. So this was back in 2003. So you couldn't Google. How do you make an invoice? Because that, wasn't a thing that Google did back then.
[00:10:17] Mark: There might've been a Microsoft word template or something.
[00:10:19] Simon: Yeah. I think in fact, I think there probably was at the time, but we were like, we need to put a name on it. Like, what do you put on it? Anyway, we went to an accountant. We set up. We accidentally started an agency in the sense that we suddenly found ourselves with a limited company with two directors. And we were just like, Hmm. but make some websites then.
[00:10:39] So we just started making websites. Um, anyway, I then decided that I wanted to go off and do more around music and music tech. So I went to London and studied there. Got to London, started studying music tech, uh, uni very quickly realized that was not my calling. Um, can't read music very well, you know, hence the drummer. Um, I used to read drum music fairly badly, but I could do it. Anyway, I realized I was in a class of very talented people, but one of the modules at uni was post-production sound. And, um, they gave us a silent, like a clip that they'd taken all the film sound off of and just said, make that sound like a film.
[00:11:22] Mark: Oh fun.
[00:11:23] Simon: And it was a comment where the name of the film was, but it was essentially two people running through the trenches with planes going over the top, and then it all went quiet and then there's bell rang and then that's a run across no man's land. And it was silent. So we had to make all of that. Anyway, I spent days and days and days in there just really getting into it. And they had a surround sound mixing suite. So it was all in surround as well. And I loved it.
[00:11:48] Anyway, I handed it in and the lecturer was just said, you're basically the only person who's ever spent this long on this. Everybody else basically skips this to get back to the music. So I think you've found what you're really good at. And I think you should lean into that because you know, no offense, but that's not your strongest suite, but this really is.
[00:12:11] So anyway, they hooked me up with some work experience at a post-production company in Soho and I in fact I I basically, I got. and I had to earn my, earn my keep as a runner. So I did a, I did production running on the entire series of Big Brother up at Hill Street film studios, which was mind numbing, um, awful, uh, you know, a lot of respect for the crew, but that's about it. And, um, it was an insight I learned so much because I was on night shift. I was hanging around with all the camera people and got to play with all camera jibs and the, the editors and the director and the script writers and the edit and the script editors, and.
[00:12:52] Mark: Oh, that sounds
[00:12:53] Simon: I was doing mind numbing work, but it was night shift and nothing happens.
[00:12:56] They were asleep. So I basically just make the occasional coffee. No doubt for anyway, and then it got a job in Soho, and then I was working on rogue traders, cash in the attic, you know, TV, gold, um, Yeah, moved to the country, Spain.
[00:13:11] Mark: of.
[00:13:11] Simon: Oh Yeah. You know, putting, putting zero seven under DIY sequences was my speciality for many years. And then after a few years of this it was a lot of night shift work again. I was doing a series called Trevor McDonald's secret Caribbean. But there was a scene with a, beach and he was walking up the beach and the waves weren't very loud and they wanted more waves. So I was there sinking waves in behind Trevor. And I was thinking, who's the mug here? I'm saying at 3:00 AM in a basement in Soho putting waves on a beach in the Caribbean, but I could have been on a beach in the Caribbean recording the waves.
[00:13:49] So Yeah, so I then decided I'm going to switch to being outside rather than inside. So I bought a load of sound recording kit. Um, Basically found someone who was studying a friend of mine was studying location, sound recording at the film school of London. And he, we were working on a short film together. So basically I, he get hammered on the Friday after college. And then the weekend we were shooting the short film for about six months and I would go or the weekend and basically just learn everything he learned that week.
[00:14:22] Mark: Oh,
[00:14:23] Simon: So I basically got the tuition for free. Um, thanks Francis, if you ever listen to this. So I learned it that way and then spent the next six years doing film and TV commercial. Well, doing a lot of films, documentaries, TV commercials, that. kind of thing. Lots of corporate video. And Yeah. I had a wonderful time. Went to some brilliant places, met some amazing people. And that was my sort of journey into sound, I guess. Um,
[00:14:50] Mark: this is a, sorry,
[00:14:52] I have to do that. Yeah. This is a journey into sound stereophonic sound .
[00:14:58] Simon: And then I got a little bit, I guess, the sort of fun went out of that a bit, the wind went out of the sails, I think, um, there's only so many times you can listen to corporate talking heads before you're just like, ah, I'm done with this. And then the agency sort of scaled up to around 2015 and then Yeah. as I say, Yeah. that that's when those two storylines collide and that caught, forced me to sort of reassess what I wanted to do. And that's when this business coach said to us, well, you seem to like the bit where you talk to clients and give them the ideas say, and that was, I guess, the start of the journey that brought us to where we all were Better Bolder Braver.
[00:15:37] Mark: I love how much, I don't know if it's serendipity or if it's accidents like hap, which kind of what serendipity is really, but the, the sort of happy accident of, uh, that, that coach saying, you know, that saying to you, you, you know, you should have this, this content somewhere because we don't know. The moment of you sat in this surround sound booth and, you know, in a lecture saying, it looks like this is the sort of thing that seems to interest you, there's a real lovely thing here, which these chance moments that the chance moment of you saying you should maybe think about making a podcast about podcasting or, or, you know, these kind of, and I love that there's quite a few of those moments that sort of it's these little, not necessarily forks in the road, but little bands that, that could so easily have not happened.
[00:16:35] Simon: Yeah. I completely agree with that. Um, there's moments where you're presented with an opportunity and it doesn't necessarily look like an opportunity. It's just, someone says something that gets your brain thinking in a different way. And I think I've always. I've always been inspired by that. And I've always been incredibly grateful to people who've said that to me, It's why I always try and say it wherever I can to other people. And I think that's what this business coach latched on to was like, you know, if you really enjoy doing this, you should probably do some more of it. And I think as you've pointed out, like the last time someone said that to me, it was like, well, I spent almost 15 years in that industry, in that career. So it was worth doing so I guess yeah. in that sense, maybe the link there is that I'm sort of extending that out in some of the conversations I have and some of the work we do.
[00:17:29] Mark: Yeah. So we're paying, paying it forward or paying it back or just allowing that serendipity to spread and, um, yeah, cause there's, there's, there's nothing like the project that, that comes along completely unexpectedly, that that then ends up being really fun, I, you know, I didn't think I'd have so much fun ostensibly doing what everybody else in my industry does. Like everybody in my industry has got a podcast about podcasting. Um, but I didn't think I'd have so much fun doing it. and, and, and end up really not doing that, but actually focusing on the writing and, and that being able to draw attention and, yeah, it's. these things that just so easily couldn't have happened. I think, uh, a lovely things to sort of, and just, just be grateful for it, I guess.
[00:18:16] Simon: Mm, Yeah. Completely because there's, you know, sometimes it is just that thing that someone says or that opportunity that someone extends to you that you don't know who's coming. And, you know, I think there's that thing between it being luck or it being operative. And some people put it down to luck and they sort of rely on luck quite a lot. But I think I've done quite a bit of thinking and work over many years of realizing that actually isn't luck at all. There is really no luck in it. It's either you lean into something and you say, yeah, you embrace it. And you think, yeah, let's give it a go take a chance. And that chance is you committing to it. It's you opening yourself up to things that have been presented to you. And sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't.
[00:19:03] You know, I mean, I've got involved in projects before that have been less than ideal. Let's just say that, you know, and you just like, oh, this is a drag and you can feel it you're in there like two days in. And you're like, this is not what I thought it was going to be public committed now. So I mean, and then other times someone will say, Hey, do you fancy a coffee and talk about this project? And you're like, okay. And you turn up and it's like, this is literally the best job that has ever existed. And I get it. Yes. For many years, I didn't like being in front of the camera at all, hence working behind the camera for many years. And I really didn't have any confidence in speaking in front of people at all. And that same business coach who said, you need to put this out there. I was immediately like, oh no, no, no, I can't do that. No me, no one wants to hear what I've got to say, et cetera, et cetera. And he was so the next session he came back and he went right. Well, I've booked you, um, a presentation in front of 50 people. So you kind of have to write something because you're going to let me down if you don't.
[00:20:08] Mark: Wow. Hello, deepened.
[00:20:11] Simon: I was like, Ooh, Okay, fine. And he's like this, all right. They're all small businesses. They're all, they're all your customers. So they'll really want to hear what you've got to say.
[00:20:21] And. Yeah, it was great. He actually booked me and Ben on that stage and Ben absolutely hated it. And I really liked it. Hence why you now see me doing all this stuff and Ben's just still not, not for it, but I think that's what it showed us is like, you don't have to both be doing everything, you know, and that that's cool.
[00:20:40] So, the video side of things, I think now is something that I think for a long time, I had put a very high bar on video. Um, I've seen other people who are in the happy little bit let's let's I'll I'll I'll name them. Cause it's wonderful. So Nick Himowicz in the Happy Startup School, um, I met Nick years ago through Happy Startup School and he's now a successful world, famous YouTuber. Um, but his channel is so well done and his lighting's great and his camera's good and these videos, he was spending loads of time on and it was just, his production values were so good. And I was looking at that thinking, whew, if that's the bar for YouTube, then our, yeah, it was as I do not have that in me.
[00:21:27] Um, and then I think I suddenly just thought, you know what, everyone's got to start somewhere. So I was like, got the web cam on the computer, got the microphone that I'm speaking into now opened up time just
[00:21:41] Mark: Okay, file new. Here we go.
[00:21:44] Simon: Yeah. And welcome to YouTube. And it was all right. You know, it was, it worked and yeah, they're not amazing videos. They're very static and they're very still, and there's not much to them, but they were videos. And then only in the last month or so ago have I really sort of found a bit creativity, and I think it's just having the space to do that in, in the, the, the sort of work and just where we're at with the business is just actually having space to be a bit more creative and having some time to that. And
[00:22:16] Mark: explore and experiment.
[00:22:17] Simon: Exactly. Yeah. So I think in the terms of watch, read, listen, do, the kind of the read, but is interesting because, I'm dyslexic. So writing is not my natural go-to. I think, to be honest, the only reason I'm able to put something out to the world is because of Grammarly, but, um, saved the day on many occasions. So I guess a little bit of reading is certainly been quite an interesting process for me as in like writing, but the reading your list.
[00:22:50] Um, I do love doing podcasts and audio recording. Um, we obviously mean Frances host, a conversational podcast, a weekly one, which we host on Crowdcast. So it's video and audio at the same time. But, um, yeah, I do like the conversation side of it, but there is part of me that still likes that kind of like, let me tell you a story about, you know, I've really liked that I've been listening to a lot of the Seth Godin podcast is a Akimbo. Um, and there I do like those. They are, they really good. So I'm kind of toying with some ideas around that at the moment.
[00:23:27] Mark: Um, I recently made a jump into TikTok
[00:23:34] Simon: Mm.
[00:23:35] Mark: and I've been finding it surprisingly fun, um, to create content for that platform. And I it's, it's interesting that we could probably get into this idea of permission, um, feeling that you have permission to enter a space. Um, and it wasn't until I saw Martin Lewis, the money saving expert do a pretty good TikTok. It was, it wasn't, you know, he, wasn't using a trap music, um, and, and doing the green screen effect where his head's bouncing all over the place. Um, he was just delivering a useful piece of information, uh, to an audience and so the whatever heating bills are about to go up. Here's the thing you can do, but, you know, nice and short and it just made me think, oh, wow. if that, like, if that counts, if that's okay, if TikTok allows that and by TikTok, I mean the community, of the way the algorithm works, if enough people are viewing this, watching it, then it will be served to more people.
[00:24:44] And so the fact that we're allowed to make content like that, um, made me think, okay, well, what can I do? And, you know, I, I went and took my, my gimbal and my, my phone and, um, recorded something that, which was going to be for LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago. And, you know, just wandered out in some, in some local Woodland, um, and, and did my thing and then came back and edited it down for LinkedIn and then sort of made a shorter version for TikTok. And it was just one of the urge thought, why not? And I didn't have a terrible experience. I wasn't laughed out of TikTok. Um, I got comments from people, uh, saying that they like my voice, which is nice. Um, and, uh, and, and now I'm just, um, being more playful in a way that, uh, I haven't before. Like I'm playing with doing fun little green screen effects, I will spend maybe 15 minutes on one and a second one second transition it just looks, you know, a bit fun to be able to do this, this particular thing and pop it on TikTok. And then there's things that you can think about in terms of looping content, ways that, you know, chefs do this now where start with the end product, you know, pulling apart the piece of chicken or whatever, then go from the beginning and then, you know, you can watch it in a loop.
[00:26:05] And, and being able to play and think, but also I think that that idea of, because you, you must get this a lot with helping people feel kind of less icky about marketing. How do you deal with people who feel, cause I get it a little bit as well. I help people with this, that feeling of like, I don't know if it's safe for me to enter this space. I don't know if I'm going to be laughed out of town or whatever. How do you work with people to sort of help them get, get over that?
[00:26:34] Simon: so really interesting point. And I think for me, when someone comes to me and says, Hey, I'm thinking of it in this thing, but I don't know. There's, there's, there's even a couple of viewpoints they've got, if you point a is, I don't have anything to say about that, that people would want to listen to be it's that my client already knows this, so I'm just going to be saying the same things. Everybody else they already know this and see is, well, I don't see anybody else doing this in this space. So therefore this isn't suitable for this. So I think are the three places I see people come from.
[00:27:17] So the first one a, which was, you know, nobody wants to hear what I've got to say, essentially. is a very common misconception and is PLA platform agnostic. I, you know, no one wants to read my blog. No one wants to watch my TikTok. No-one wants to follow me on Instagram. No one wants to read my Medium. Fair enough. But actually it's the opposite of that. People do want to read that people do want to read you explaining the who, what, why and marketing five different times, five different ways, because people need to understand it in different ways. And it will land with different people at different times. And also your clients don't know what you know, otherwise they would need. There have your experience. They're not you, otherwise they would need you. You know, the fact that people are out there looking for people to guide them through problems, feelings, experiences, and ideas is because th th they're looking for that guide, aren't they?
[00:28:12] So when they look for that guide, that's when you can say to someone, you know, people, people do need to know that, you know, as, as a, as we've already discussed that business coach saying to me, actually, Simon, yeah. People need to know this people. Don't, people don't know what you're saying. People don't know what's in your head and just the way you articulate it. You know, like you making your podcast about banking, podcasts, we're on a podcast talking about your podcast about making podcasts. It's like,
[00:28:40] Mark: phones are gonna fold in on themselves.
[00:28:42] Simon: You know, it's like, But that the way you articulate it, the way you describe it is what people show up for.
[00:28:49] It's what people come back for. It's like, oh, Mark's talking about Mike's I've always wanted to know about microphones. So that's how you put a microphone near your face to sound good. I did not know that, you know, but extensively you could argue that the episode that you've made about how making a voice sound good and where to place a microphone is completely unnecessary.
[00:29:08] No one needs that episode. There are probably a million. I would argue over a million videos on YouTube about where to, how to do that. But people have watched yours. People come back to yours. People have hit the subscribe button after watching yours because of the way you talk about it. And that is exactly it, isn't it? It's that the way you describe it, the feeling you give people, the confidence that is instilled with people they listen to what you're saying why people want to hear you and they want to come back for more of you.
[00:29:39] Mark: Um, that gets us to the Netflix of you.
[00:29:41] Simon: Exactly. Exactly. So it's that thing of like, once I've watched two or three of your videos or anyone's videos, I think, you know what? I reckon this person knows more about this than they're letting on. I want to know everything they know, and I need to know that now and the detail people will binge watch you, you know, people say, Oh no one has any attention. It's like not true. I know people who've watched all of Ozark in a weekend. People have attention. People have time. People
[00:30:10] Mark: Yes.
[00:30:10] Simon: much free time that they can watch Game of Thrones. Like all of it. I mean, arguably that is Daisy. I mean The Wire, you remember that? That was the original version of that less, I mean, incredible TV, But people have time, um, it's what they choose to do with their time. So if you can get someone to say, Hey, I liked the way you spoke about that. I'm going to come back for more.
[00:30:34] So I still subscribe to quite a few YouTube channels and on my phone every now and then my phone decides that I haven't picked it up in 30 seconds and it goes, Hey, so-and-so from past use, subscribing has released a video and I'm like, Hmm. Oh, I watched that, you know, I watched the 16 minute video of, um, Tom Scott
[00:30:53] Mark: Of course it's Tom. Scott was hoping you were going to say Tom Scott, that guy's amazing.
[00:30:56] Simon: of Tom Scott and the coffee man showing Tom Scott, all about coffee and it's incredible. And I sat around and watched all 16 minutes of it, but yeah, I'm busy and I've got, you know, I've got no time, but yeah, I can also do that. And every time Tom Scott makes a video about the firing range that goes over a motorway, or, you know why this cave has robot dogs in it Or something, you know, I'm there, I'm
[00:31:17] Mark: what about the titles? Uh, the total sequence of the, the ITV show. It'll be all right on the night.
[00:31:25] Simon: unbelievable. And I've got so much time for that level of nerdery. And I challenge anybody to watch that video and then tell me that no one is interested in what they've got to say.
[00:31:39] Mark: Oh yes, absolutely. If you can, if you can watch half an hour, because it is half an hour of a man walking up a hill and telling you about a show by Dennis Norton called it'll be all right on the night, which has only ever been on TV about 12 times, because they don't make very many episodes
[00:31:57] Simon: and
[00:31:58] they're not recorded and you can't look that show up. And also the other thing is it's not the that's half and the half an hour. Isn't about the show. It's just about the titles of the show.
[00:32:09] Mark: Yep.
[00:32:09] Simon: then, and then you look at how it's had millions of views. I think. I hope so.
[00:32:15] Mark: And it's not big yet. I think so. And it's not because Tom Scott is, you know, um.
[00:32:20] Simon: I think, I think if I had to describe Tom Scott, I would say he's that person that you met in that pub one time where you thought you were going to have one pint and six pints later, you're still talking, but you, and you're like, how have we got to the midnight? Oh gosh, I've got to go. That's Tom Scott.
[00:32:37] Mark: So this is episode one of Ear Brain Heart. And this is our little moment now to sort of get ourselves acquainted. Um, if you don't know who I am. Um, my name's Mark. Hi. I started making podcasts in around 2008. I used to get paid in beer, uh, to do that. And now I get paid in actual money. In 2016, I started a media hosting company and that's one part of the podcasting stack that handles a lot of the, the tech my background. Uh, I studied radio university, married that up with internet stuff. And got a job. Mostly just doing internet stuff until 2016, where I was able to, to bring back the, the radio that I loved. And, uh, and so. Uh, I sold that business, uh, in the spring of 2021. And I now focus on getting people through the podcasting process. Guiding them through it and helping them sort of feel better about the process as well.
[00:33:37] Um, I'm interested in this Ear Brain, Heart journey. This idea that a message travels from the air. Where it sits there for a minute, goes into the brain where we digest it and it mingles with those thoughts. Uh, the, the thoughts of our listener and then through consistency through, through just showing up, through building trust, using intimacy, the power of our voice, all of these things come together to take that message from the brain into the heart. And, and it takes you into people's hearts.
[00:34:07] And that's what it's, it's a, it's an old idea about radio, how we feel like we have this connection to the DJs that we used to listen to because we're connected by that voice.
[00:34:20] Now you'll hear from other people who are helping me and who have something to say along the Ear Brain Heart journey. Uh, including next week. My guest is Frances Khalastchi who is the other half of Better Bolder Braver. Uh, we're going to touch on some of the more human aspects of the marketing, uh, journey. If you like and what I tend to think of as this squishy stuff.
[00:34:46] If you want your phone to tell you when that episode is ready, then you can head to earbrainheart.com, and while you're there, you'll see a form at the bottom of the page for my newsletter, which I can highly recommend. Comes out every Thursday. It's very short and it's just a collection of useful links for you.
[00:35:04] Um, Within that newsletter. And within my site in general, I talk about podcasting from the perspective of busy people who want to use their voice to affect change, but also it's three o'clock and you've got to pick the kids up. Like there's a whole life that you've got around this stuff. So we don't obsess about this particular mic and this adapter that helps your mic work in these seconds? No, no one cares. Right? You. You're busy. You want you. We want to make a podcast. You care about it. But there are other interests that also demand your time. Uh, yeah. earbrainheart.com is a great place to start.
[00:35:43] Um, now links to everything that we, uh, Simon and I discussed today, uh, all in the show notes. So if you look at your phone, the podcast player that you're using right now, or on the website, you will find links to everything that we chatted about, including Simon and Better Bolder Braver.
[00:36:00] Uh, so let's head back into, uh, our conversation where I asked Simon all about. How we create content for different learning styles.
[00:36:10] Simon: So watch read, listen, do is the concept that. people digest content in different ways with different formats. So for example, some people are readers, they're detailed readers and they learn by reading. So some people will see a 10 minute read blog and think who, who, I mean, dive straight in and rub their hands, you know, have a coffee, whatever, sit there and read it. And that is them. They're readers.
[00:36:39] Some people can read very fast. This surprised me, amazed me how far some people can read. As someone who's dyslexic on the opposite of that. Reading to me is quite hard work. It's not something I lean into as long as than about four paragraphs, Anita, I need a TLDR at the bottom of what that's all about.
[00:36:59] So for me, I prefer to either listen or watch my content. So immediately we've discovered that if all I was to do in my marketing was to write a blog. People like me wouldn't be that engaged. So you're already missing me. However, if I was to simply take my blog and read it, record it, you know, use an into your podcast software into Descript into quick time. Voice note, whatever it is and put it out as a podcast episode in that. blog, you could say this, this episode is this, this blog is also available as a podcast episode. People like me, it'd be like, oh, right, Okay. I mean, yeah, I can now click play and I can do the washing up. I can do the gardening. I can do whatever I want to do whilst listening to you read your blog at me. Great. This is fantastic.
[00:37:52] Some people really absorb information visually. So for me, I'm very much that type of person. I can remember things that happened in video or live for years and years to come. You know, I can remember gigs and comedy sketches and things that really entertained me. That information to me just goes in. I don't always remember what I've read. So. If you can turn what you're reading into something you can watch. Then again, you've got another format.
[00:38:26] And that doesn't have to be you talking to camera. It doesn't have to be you doing a perfect TV, presenter walk and talk that ends with a rocket launching in the background the moon. You know, it doesn't have to be that level of precise, amazing camera work. can just have a discussion. So like me and Francis do where we host the Monday master classes, where we have someone else on that is a video of us having a discussion that we then put out on YouTube, and we also put it on our podcast. So we've got that extra format.
[00:38:57] And then the do element of watch read, listen, do is the final sort of wrapper around it. that's either inviting someone to do something. So you might say to someone, Hey, I'd like you to consider this from a different angle. So I might say in this podcast, well, if you're writing a blog, I would ask.
[00:39:15] I would say, well, how much extra time would it take you to record that as a podcast episode? And also what's stopping you from doing that. Those two questions are the, do it's making you do something that's making you think about something? The other thing I could say is you'd like to learn more about this?
[00:39:32] I've got a checklist on my website and you can go through that checklist so you can do that thing. So I can invite someone to go and do something. Um, for some people that is an exercise, it could be a breathing exercise. It could be a physical exercise that you're doing some stretching, whatever, you know, it can be kinetic learning.
[00:39:49] Um, it's obviously harder to do if you rely on an actual physical thing
[00:39:54] Mark: Mm,
[00:39:55] Simon: to have to do the learning, but it doesn't have to be that it can just be, go and do this thing. Or even thinking is a doing in this context. So essentially it's taking that one thing and turning it into four things.
[00:40:07] Mark: Yeah. I guess one of those, those dues could be S you know, like just sitting and sketching something out or sitting, and like actually with a pen and paper sort of writing or doodling an idea, because you're still, I guess, engaging that part of the brain that feels like it is, you know, taking action and doing.
[00:40:25] Simon: Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And it's, it's part of the, trying to get people to do things or consider things in different ways. So like in our training course, it's not always write this down. Sometimes it's get on a call with someone and talk to them about this, or it's draw this out, sketch out the first thing that comes into mind, you know, visualize your process as a line.
[00:40:49] What shape is that line? And it's like, whoa, what, you know, it just gets people thinking completely differently. And if you, if you can kind of embrace that in your marketing, then It really helps, especially when we're talking about marketing for coaches, because what you're trying to get people to do when you're doing marketing for coaches is just to consider their current situation or their lived experience in a slightly different way, join up some concepts, join up some ideas to a point where they think, do you know what I think, actually, I might like to do something about this. I might want to, I, I, I want to change this, how I feel, how I think, how I am this. and therefore they then go looking for a way to do that. And at that point, you're then to present what you do a potential solution to that.
[00:41:40] And when you, when you do marketing in that way, watch read listen do really helps you're inviting people to watch this thing, to listen to this, to read that, to do this. And it just helps to get people moving and thinking and, you know, considering those different perspectives and ideas.
[00:41:58] Mark: Completely. And I think one of the things that I like about the, the, the concept is that. Each person can have a different starting point from the point of view of creating that content. Um, you know, this begins its life as a conversation and it will be transcribed and that will be shown notes and there will be links and things, uh, and it will be an audio file, but it's, it's been going its life a piece of spoken content.
[00:42:25] Whereas the blog posts that I write, I like, I actually now enjoy that process of starting from the written word, and then I will go in and I will sit and record them. And so that, you know, is a, it's a separate piece. And then there's, you know, it might be in fact.
[00:42:43] Weirdly enough, the, uh, the TikTok video, it started its life as a, uh, as an idea for TikTok that the last one I did, which was, um, I had on a sleepless night, um, of what are the, what what's it cost to make a podcast? What are the, what are all of the things you need and how much do they cost in, in equivalents that we can understand of like a night out or a takeaway or a Netflix subscription or Uber. Um, and so. It started its life in short form video. And then I thought, well, I want the viewer to go somewhere after this. And so I don't want to point them to my program. I don't want to do that kind of sell. I want to be able to say, there's, I've given you the price tags. If you want the products, they're not affiliate cut. Well, some of them are affiliate links, but like more up to the point, if you want these products, if you want to know what they are, follow this link. And so then I needed a blog post or I needed a page to support it. So it's like, again, now I've got a blog post. Um, and then I thought, well, if I'm doing the blog post anyway, I may as well just sit and take the extra five minutes and sit and record it. So now this, this video that's, you know, it, it conceived its life as a, as a video. Um, it, it's now gone into the blog post and the podcast episode.
[00:43:55] So that helps people who think in different ways, but it doesn't necessarily mean that every piece of content is always going to start from the same Genesis point. Um, you know, it, it really can come from the idea. It might be that you have a checklist and then you start to build everything around that checklist.
[00:44:12] Simon: Yeah. And I think also the other thing to say is that what you've said there is really clever because it's, like start at the point, that feels right. And some ideas are going to be like, I've made this video, as you say, and it ended up as a blog post other times, it's going to be all the way around.
[00:44:30] sometimes you're going to get a blog and you're just like this isn't going to work as a podcast. Isn't gonna work as a video because I can't be in a volcano juggling. Like I'm saying, like I'm talking about in the blog because it's not going to work. So that's all right. If, if one bit of content is only a blog, cool.
[00:44:48] It doesn't have to be, but at least you've considered it. And what I think we try and do is use it as a way to inspire people to say, well, actually, know, what, if you're just happy with writing at the moment, you're missing a whole load of people out there. So just consider it.
[00:45:03] Mark: Yeah.
[00:45:03] Simon: Or if you're like, do you know what you've, you've got all these amazing podcast, but actually, you know, Google doesn't yet well search podcasts. all of these how to do deliver is a great search term on Spotify or in apple music or apple podcasts. That's great. Google, you could be all over that as well, because oh Yeah, of course. It's just, you can, you can cover a lot of bases And sometimes it feels like people have got some absolute gold in their blog that would make incredible YouTube videos or great podcasts. And it's just about, I guess, giving them that, that kind of reassurance that actually, yeah, you should, you should give this a go. You should get out there and, and, know, put it out there and see what happen.
[00:45:47] Mark: And also, I think the idea that that helps me also is, or maybe help help others is if you can view it from the idea of the service that you're doing for others, because yes, you start with this idea of, and it's come through text and you might feel a bit shy about putting yourself out there in voice or in, uh, in video form that might make you feel vulnerable. Um, but, uh, one thing to bear in mind is that this is an invitation for you to be, to be of service to people because yes, you've got this blog post, but now you actually get to help people digest it. In other ways, it's not about pushing your stuff onto other people. It's about saying, well, I've written this thing, I'm now making it more accessible to you if you want it. Um, and, and. Yeah, that's that's, uh, uh, I always like to try and come back to service, I think, because it, it can, it can help sometimes when you're like, oh, actually this is a gift. It's not, I'm not trying to force foist this all myself on you. I am inviting you to, you know, to find this useful.
[00:46:50] Simon: Yeah, And I think some of the other things you can do is just invite people to share it.
[00:46:55] Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:46:58] Simon: you thinking you want to send it to someone else who you think might enjoy it, that's enough of a do sometimes.
[00:47:03] Mark: Yeah.
[00:47:04] Simon: Or you can say, I mean, I often use the thing. I wrote a blog about this. So check out the blog, you know, that's as much as I'm going to say about it, it's like, here's a hit, this, this video is a summary of the blog. If you really want to get deep here, then there's a big blog about it. But then conversely, on the blog, I'm saying, you know, if you're not a reading person, there's a short video version of this.
[00:47:27] Mark: You've, you've given me and the listener a lot to think about where should people go to, uh, watch, read, listen, and do the things that you have to offer us?
[00:47:36] Simon: So if people want to find out more about the work we do, uh, the best place to go is to betterbolderbraver.com. You can also search for me on LinkedIn. if you type in Simon Batchelar marketing mentor, that will work,
[00:47:53] Mark: And, uh, links to everything are in the show notes as well. So I'm always.
[00:47:57] Simon: Can then find all of those links. If you're, you're inclined to and connect on LinkedIn, that'd be great. Um, and my YouTube channel as well, if you want to see some of the videos that I've been talking about, uh, in, in the episode, that would also, that would also be great as well.
[00:48:12] Mark: Simon. Thank you very much for, uh, being, um, my Guinea pig on this, uh, on this new experiment. I really appreciate it.
[00:48:20] Simon: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.